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So jump to the head of the class and Register for the Data Integration Suite Summer School Program today! Ivan Pedruzzi DataDirect Technologies -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://x-query.com/pipermail/talk/attachments/20090803/2668d5cb/attachment.htm From davideps at umich.edu Thu Aug 6 16:57:21 2009 From: davideps at umich.edu (David Epstein) Date: Thu Aug 6 08:55:14 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] how to generate an inventory of elements in a list for whole collection? Message-ID: Hi everyone, I'm hoping someone here may be able to point me in the right direction. I need to write a query that does the following for each node in the path: 1) extracts a string from a parameter (see example fragment below) 2) splits the string into distinct elements on the semi-colon character 3) keeps a running tally of unique elements for the WHOLE collection 3) keeps a running tally of how many times each unique element occured 4) returns a XML doc in which each element is paired with a number representing the times it occured. I understand how to split a string. I understand how to structure an XML return. But, I don't understand how to create a master list or hash for the whole collection. I think I could do this in Perl or Python. But, I'm new to XQuery. At each step I would need to compare the elements I just extracted to the ones I've already found. Repeat elements would cause the value for that element to increase by one. New elements would be added to the list with a value of 1 (one occurrence so far). Here is what the start of a node looks like. I want the list stored in "subject". References: Message-ID: <1DD50B28FCD04BA98C7CFB3FF6B4B38A@Sealion> >At each step I would need to compare the elements I just extracted to the ones I've already found. Repeat elements would cause the value for that element to increase by one. You've given a description of a (very) procedural algorithm for computing the result. XQuery is a declarative language, so the hard work of devising an algorithm is the processor's job, not yours. You have to say what you want done, not how you want it to be done. Am I right in thinking that when you say "elements" you don't mean it in the XML sense, you mean tokens within the text content of an element? I think, from reverse engineering your description, that what you want is along these lines: let $tokens := //highlight/@subject/tokenize(.,';') for $x in distinct-values($tokens) return Regards, Michael Kay http://www.saxonica.com/ http://twitter.com/michaelhkay > -----Original Message----- > From: talk-bounces@x-query.com > [mailto:talk-bounces@x-query.com] On Behalf Of David Epstein > Sent: 06 August 2009 16:57 > To: talk@xquery.com > Subject: [xquery-talk] how to generate an inventory of > elements in a listfor whole collection? > > Hi everyone, > > I'm hoping someone here may be able to point me in the right > direction. I need to write a query that does the following > for each node in the path: > > 1) extracts a string from a parameter (see example fragment below) > 2) splits the string into distinct elements on the semi-colon > character > 3) keeps a running tally of unique elements for the WHOLE collection > 3) keeps a running tally of how many times each unique element occured > 4) returns a XML doc in which each element is paired with a > number representing the times it occured. > > I understand how to split a string. I understand how to > structure an XML return. > But, I don't understand how to create a master list or hash > for the whole collection. I think I could do this in Perl or > Python. But, I'm new to XQuery. > At each step I would need to compare the elements I just > extracted to the ones I've already found. Repeat elements > would cause the value for that element to increase by one. > New elements would be added to the list with a value of 1 > (one occurrence so far). > > Here is what the start of a node looks like. I want the list > stored in "subject". > title="example" creationdate="D:20090727164124-04'00'" > subject="q;def:environmental > management;human-env-interact;heath;env;" page="12" > date="D:20090727164241-04'00'" flags="print" > > When the query is complete, the element "q" may have been > encountered 200 times (in 200 nodes) and the element "health" > may have been encountered 70 times. > > Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thank you! > > -david > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > talk@x-query.com > http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk From mike at saxonica.com Thu Aug 6 23:42:53 2009 From: mike at saxonica.com (Michael Kay) Date: Thu Aug 6 14:30:31 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] how to generate an inventory of elements in alistfor whole collection? In-Reply-To: <20090806173503.15334vuxucuuj340@web.mail.umich.edu> References: <1DD50B28FCD04BA98C7CFB3FF6B4B38A@Sealion> <20090806173503.15334vuxucuuj340@web.mail.umich.edu> Message-ID: > > I had to replace the "{.}" with "{$x}" to avoid an error from eXist. Sorry about that. It's an error I make all the time - the result of too many years spent writing XSLT for-each instructions. Incidentally the XSLT solution to this is: -- which is rather easier for the system to optimize. Regards, Michael Kay http://www.saxonica.com/ http://twitter.com/michaelhkay > But, it worked beautifully and gives me an example of a way > to approach some other tasks. I had no idea how powerful a > "let" could be > -- you just grabbed EVERYTHING needed for the calculation in one step! > > thank you! > -david > > > --- > > I think, from reverse engineering your description, that what > you want is along these lines: > > let $tokens := //highlight/@subject/tokenize(.,';') > for $x in distinct-values($tokens) > return > From mlu at as-guides.com Mon Aug 10 16:22:34 2009 From: mlu at as-guides.com (Michael Ludwig) Date: Mon Aug 10 06:21:38 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] Programmatically constructing sequences ("a", "b", "c") for XQuery Message-ID: <4A801F1A.4020302@as-guides.com> I'm reposting a question that I already asked in a similar form on the Berkeley DB XML forum [1]. Let's say I have a prepared query like this: collection('import')[//File = $files] Now I would like to be $files a sequence of strings: ('eins','zwei','drei') Does anyone know of a way to achieve this? It might be at the XQuery level or at the Java (or whatever) level. In Java, would you use java.lang.StringBuilder? And then append quotes and commas? Or is there a better, safer way? [1] http://forums.oracle.com/forums/thread.jspa?threadID=940849 -- Michael Ludwig From adam.retter at googlemail.com Mon Aug 10 15:33:33 2009 From: adam.retter at googlemail.com (Adam Retter) Date: Mon Aug 10 06:32:20 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] Programmatically constructing sequences ("a", "b", "c") for XQuery In-Reply-To: <4A801F1A.4020302@as-guides.com> References: <4A801F1A.4020302@as-guides.com> Message-ID: Where is your sequence data coming from? 2009/8/10 Michael Ludwig : > I'm reposting a question that I already asked in a similar form on the > Berkeley DB XML forum [1]. > > Let's say I have a prepared query like this: > > ?collection('import')[//File = $files] > > Now I would like to be $files a sequence of strings: > > ?('eins','zwei','drei') > > Does anyone know of a way to achieve this? It might be at the XQuery > level or at the Java (or whatever) level. > > In Java, would you use java.lang.StringBuilder? And then append quotes > and commas? Or is there a better, safer way? > > [1] http://forums.oracle.com/forums/thread.jspa?threadID=940849 > > -- > Michael Ludwig > _______________________________________________ > talk@x-query.com > http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk > -- Adam Retter sip:adam.retter@ekiga.net http://www.adamretter.org.uk From andrew.j.welch at gmail.com Mon Aug 10 15:43:35 2009 From: andrew.j.welch at gmail.com (Andrew Welch) Date: Mon Aug 10 06:42:07 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] Programmatically constructing sequences ("a", "b", "c") for XQuery In-Reply-To: <4A801F1A.4020302@as-guides.com> References: <4A801F1A.4020302@as-guides.com> Message-ID: <74a894af0908100643s7dc43e18r95f3d6421185f15@mail.gmail.com> 2009/8/10 Michael Ludwig : > I'm reposting a question that I already asked in a similar form on the > Berkeley DB XML forum [1]. > > Let's say I have a prepared query like this: > > ?collection('import')[//File = $files] > > Now I would like to be $files a sequence of strings: > > ?('eins','zwei','drei') > > Does anyone know of a way to achieve this? It might be at the XQuery > level or at the Java (or whatever) level. > > In Java, would you use java.lang.StringBuilder? And then append quotes > and commas? Or is there a better, safer way? > > [1] http://forums.oracle.com/forums/thread.jspa?threadID=940849 Pass in a delimited string and tokenize it? -- Andrew Welch http://andrewjwelch.com Kernow: http://kernowforsaxon.sf.net/ From vyacheslav.sedov at gmail.com Mon Aug 10 19:40:08 2009 From: vyacheslav.sedov at gmail.com (Vyacheslav Sedov) Date: Mon Aug 10 07:37:36 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] Programmatically constructing sequences ("a", "b", "c") for XQuery In-Reply-To: <74a894af0908100643s7dc43e18r95f3d6421185f15@mail.gmail.com> References: <4A801F1A.4020302@as-guides.com> <74a894af0908100643s7dc43e18r95f3d6421185f15@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7ab7cbac0908100740x13fb19c1g94569374547ab7ed@mail.gmail.com> too much work to "marry white rose with black toad" :( i guess exist-db.org is much better solution (xquery-centric) where we need java only to run eXist and Saxon for pessimists i can report that we already have working project in Ministry of Public Utilities based only on eXist & Saxon, something like Cybersyn-2 :) see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Cybersyn yep - we fixed some bugs in eXist to reach some of our goals (: trunk version of eXist was used - we like url rewrite feature :), so our project able to consume and produce ODF & OOXML-based reports, perform on-type validation of reports using injection of conditional formatting rules into Spreadsheets and using Schematron validation on server side (we use single XML source with our validation rules to generate document-side and server-side validation logic, and even more - we produce big amount of dynamic validation rules, based on historical data for every reporter, and everything work fine. 99% of problems was related only with OO 3.1 & MS Office 2007 bugs. But many developers still can`t believe that in most cases here no need for java or php at all. XQuery-centric web applications sounds scary but it really better then living in old-fashioned world of xml-unfriendly languages like java and php, web *must* be xml - so why use java or php to build web? why we need to produce street html? with best wishes, Slav On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 5:43 PM, Andrew Welch wrote: > 2009/8/10 Michael Ludwig : >> I'm reposting a question that I already asked in a similar form on the >> Berkeley DB XML forum [1]. >> >> Let's say I have a prepared query like this: >> >> ?collection('import')[//File = $files] >> >> Now I would like to be $files a sequence of strings: >> >> ?('eins','zwei','drei') >> >> Does anyone know of a way to achieve this? It might be at the XQuery >> level or at the Java (or whatever) level. >> >> In Java, would you use java.lang.StringBuilder? And then append quotes >> and commas? Or is there a better, safer way? >> >> [1] http://forums.oracle.com/forums/thread.jspa?threadID=940849 > > Pass in a delimited string and tokenize it? > > > -- > Andrew Welch > http://andrewjwelch.com > Kernow: http://kernowforsaxon.sf.net/ > > _______________________________________________ > talk@x-query.com > http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk > From mlu at as-guides.com Mon Aug 10 18:03:13 2009 From: mlu at as-guides.com (Michael Ludwig) Date: Mon Aug 10 07:57:10 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] Programmatically constructing sequences ("a", "b", "c") for XQuery In-Reply-To: References: <4A801F1A.4020302@as-guides.com> Message-ID: <4A8036B1.1020000@as-guides.com> Adam Retter schrieb: > Where is your sequence data coming from? > 2009/8/10 Michael Ludwig : >> I'm reposting a question that I already asked in a similar form on >> the Berkeley DB XML forum [1]. >> >> Let's say I have a prepared query like this: >> >> collection('import')[//File = $files] >> >> Now I would like to be $files a sequence of strings: >> >> ('eins','zwei','drei') There is an HTML interface including a list of checkboxes; these checkboxes are generated according to what files are found in a certain directory on the filesystem. -- Michael Ludwig From mlu at as-guides.com Mon Aug 10 18:09:59 2009 From: mlu at as-guides.com (Michael Ludwig) Date: Mon Aug 10 08:03:47 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] Programmatically constructing sequences ("a", "b", "c") for XQuery In-Reply-To: <74a894af0908100643s7dc43e18r95f3d6421185f15@mail.gmail.com> References: <4A801F1A.4020302@as-guides.com> <74a894af0908100643s7dc43e18r95f3d6421185f15@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A803847.3000001@as-guides.com> Andrew Welch schrieb: > 2009/8/10 Michael Ludwig : >> Let's say I have a prepared query like this: >> >> collection('import')[//File = $files] >> >> Now I would like to be $files a sequence of strings: >> >> ('eins','zwei','drei') >> >> Does anyone know of a way to achieve this? It might be at the XQuery >> level or at the Java (or whatever) level. >> >> In Java, would you use java.lang.StringBuilder? And then append >> quotes and commas? Or is there a better, safer way? > Pass in a delimited string and tokenize it? Well, I might be misunderstanding, but I do have the tokens; I want to join them. It seems wrong to do this manually, as I don't construct my SQL queries like that, but rather rely on methods like prepare() and bind_param() in Perl's DBI, which handle escaping and prevent injection. -- Michael Ludwig From adam.retter at googlemail.com Mon Aug 10 17:23:56 2009 From: adam.retter at googlemail.com (Adam Retter) Date: Mon Aug 10 08:17:24 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] Programmatically constructing sequences ("a", "b", "c") for XQuery In-Reply-To: <4A8036B1.1020000@as-guides.com> References: <4A801F1A.4020302@as-guides.com> <4A8036B1.1020000@as-guides.com> Message-ID: I think the problem is that we are missing the bigger picture of the XQuery. You have some XQuery and you want to construct a sequence of strings, how in the XQuery do you get access to the data that you want to form a sequence of strings from? 2009/8/10 Michael Ludwig : > Adam Retter schrieb: >> >> Where is your sequence data coming from? > >> 2009/8/10 Michael Ludwig : >>> >>> I'm reposting a question that I already asked in a similar form on >>> the Berkeley DB XML forum [1]. >>> >>> Let's say I have a prepared query like this: >>> >>> ?collection('import')[//File = $files] >>> >>> Now I would like to be $files a sequence of strings: >>> >>> ?('eins','zwei','drei') > > There is an HTML interface including a list of checkboxes; these > checkboxes are generated according to what files are found in a certain > directory on the filesystem. > > -- > Michael Ludwig > _______________________________________________ > talk@x-query.com > http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk > -- Adam Retter sip:adam.retter@ekiga.net http://www.adamretter.org.uk From andrew.j.welch at gmail.com Mon Aug 10 17:33:22 2009 From: andrew.j.welch at gmail.com (Andrew Welch) Date: Mon Aug 10 08:26:39 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] Programmatically constructing sequences ("a", "b", "c") for XQuery In-Reply-To: <4A803847.3000001@as-guides.com> References: <4A801F1A.4020302@as-guides.com> <74a894af0908100643s7dc43e18r95f3d6421185f15@mail.gmail.com> <4A803847.3000001@as-guides.com> Message-ID: <74a894af0908100833q1a50e9f1w1391c3a513c39d5@mail.gmail.com> 2009/8/10 Michael Ludwig : > Andrew Welch schrieb: >> >> 2009/8/10 Michael Ludwig : > >>> Let's say I have a prepared query like this: >>> >>> ?collection('import')[//File = $files] >>> >>> Now I would like to be $files a sequence of strings: >>> >>> ?('eins','zwei','drei') >>> >>> Does anyone know of a way to achieve this? It might be at the XQuery >>> level or at the Java (or whatever) level. >>> >>> In Java, would you use java.lang.StringBuilder? And then append >>> quotes and commas? Or is there a better, safer way? > >> Pass in a delimited string and tokenize it? > > Well, I might be misunderstanding, but I do have the tokens; I want to > join them. It seems wrong to do this manually, as I don't construct my > SQL queries like that, but rather rely on methods like prepare() and > bind_param() in Perl's DBI, which handle escaping and prevent injection. It sounds like you want to pass some values into a query as a sequence of strings? The simplest way is to pass in a single string that is the sequence concatenated using some delimiter. For example, pass in: "eins, zwei, drei" as the parameter, then do: declare variable $files as xs:string+ := tokenize($param, ', '); which is your sequence of strings. -- Andrew Welch http://andrewjwelch.com Kernow: http://kernowforsaxon.sf.net/ From mlu at as-guides.com Mon Aug 10 18:33:19 2009 From: mlu at as-guides.com (Michael Ludwig) Date: Mon Aug 10 08:26:40 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] Programmatically constructing sequences ("a", "b", "c") for XQuery In-Reply-To: <7ab7cbac0908100740x13fb19c1g94569374547ab7ed@mail.gmail.com> References: <4A801F1A.4020302@as-guides.com> <74a894af0908100643s7dc43e18r95f3d6421185f15@mail.gmail.com> <7ab7cbac0908100740x13fb19c1g94569374547ab7ed@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A803DBF.9070703@as-guides.com> Vyacheslav Sedov schrieb: > too much work to "marry white rose with black toad" :( > > i guess exist-db.org is much better solution (xquery-centric) where we > need java only to run eXist and Saxon Vyacheslav, I don't know if it's better, but it is a much bigger app server, not a library. Anyway, I'm going to stay in the Berkeley camp. > for pessimists i can report that we already have working project in > Ministry of Public Utilities based only on eXist & Saxon, something > like Cybersyn-2 :) see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Cybersyn Interesting. I think the reason that one failed was they didn't include beer bottle holders in the swivel chairs. > XQuery-centric web applications sounds scary but it really better then > living in old-fashioned world of xml-unfriendly languages like java > and php, web *must* be xml - so why use java or php to build web? Inertia? Don't forget it does take time to learn all the XML stuff - in addition to what you've already learnt. -- Michael Ludwig From mlu at as-guides.com Mon Aug 10 19:25:04 2009 From: mlu at as-guides.com (Michael Ludwig) Date: Mon Aug 10 09:17:13 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] Programmatically constructing sequences ("a", "b", "c") for XQuery In-Reply-To: References: <4A801F1A.4020302@as-guides.com> <4A8036B1.1020000@as-guides.com> Message-ID: <4A8049E0.4010800@as-guides.com> Adam Retter schrieb: > I think the problem is that we are missing the bigger picture of the > XQuery. > > You have some XQuery and you want to construct a sequence of strings, > how in the XQuery do you get access to the data that you want to form > a sequence of strings from? Hi Adam, you're absolutely right - I forgot to include the context; sorry for that. The parameter is supplied programmatically in the query context, which holds prefix-namespace-mappings, variables, etc. (For more detail, see XmlQueryContext in the DBXML documentation.) Using a literal: xqc.setVariableValue("files", new XmlValue("eins")); Using a StringBuilder: xqc.setVariableValue("files", new XmlValue(sb.toString())); Does that make it clear enough? I think I know what the problem is. The XmlValue constructor does not seem designed to accept sequences. What I mean to be a sequence - ('eins','zwei','drei') - is interpreted as a literal string. So I think a (somewhat kludgy) solution would be to construct a mini document from the input parameters, store it in the database and then join against that: eins zwei drei Or, preferably, use an XmlResolver. Much better than storing parameters in the database, if only temporarily. -- Michael Ludwig From mlu at as-guides.com Mon Aug 10 19:34:14 2009 From: mlu at as-guides.com (Michael Ludwig) Date: Mon Aug 10 09:26:06 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] Programmatically constructing sequences ("a", "b", "c") for XQuery In-Reply-To: <74a894af0908100833q1a50e9f1w1391c3a513c39d5@mail.gmail.com> References: <4A801F1A.4020302@as-guides.com> <74a894af0908100643s7dc43e18r95f3d6421185f15@mail.gmail.com> <4A803847.3000001@as-guides.com> <74a894af0908100833q1a50e9f1w1391c3a513c39d5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A804C06.1010209@as-guides.com> Andrew Welch schrieb: > 2009/8/10 Michael Ludwig : >> Well, I might be misunderstanding, but I do have the tokens; I want >> to join them. It seems wrong to do this manually, as I don't >> construct my SQL queries like that, but rather rely on methods like >> prepare() and bind_param() in Perl's DBI, which handle escaping and >> prevent injection. > > It sounds like you want to pass some values into a query as a sequence > of strings? The simplest way is to pass in a single string that is > the sequence concatenated using some delimiter. > > For example, pass in: > > "eins, zwei, drei" > > as the parameter, then do: > > declare variable $files as xs:string+ := tokenize($param, ', '); > > which is your sequence of strings. Andrew, you're a genius for reading my cloudy thoughts and providing the right solution! Works perfectly, just what I needed. Thanks a ton! -- Michael Ludwig From adam.retter at googlemail.com Mon Aug 10 18:42:03 2009 From: adam.retter at googlemail.com (Adam Retter) Date: Mon Aug 10 09:33:37 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] Programmatically constructing sequences ("a", "b", "c") for XQuery In-Reply-To: <4A8049E0.4010800@as-guides.com> References: <4A801F1A.4020302@as-guides.com> <4A8036B1.1020000@as-guides.com> <4A8049E0.4010800@as-guides.com> Message-ID: > Adam Retter schrieb: >> >> I think the problem is that we are missing the bigger picture of the >> XQuery. >> >> You have some XQuery and you want to construct a sequence of strings, >> how in the XQuery do you get access to the data that you want to form >> a sequence of strings from? > > Hi Adam, > > you're absolutely right - I forgot to include the context; sorry for > that. The parameter is supplied programmatically in the query context, > which holds prefix-namespace-mappings, variables, etc. (For more detail, > see XmlQueryContext in the DBXML documentation.) > > Using a literal: > > ?xqc.setVariableValue("files", new XmlValue("eins")); > > Using a StringBuilder: > > ?xqc.setVariableValue("files", new XmlValue(sb.toString())); > > Does that make it clear enough? > > I think I know what the problem is. The XmlValue constructor does not > seem designed to accept sequences. What I mean to be a sequence - > ('eins','zwei','drei') - is interpreted as a literal string. I am not familiar with Berkely XML DB, but I had a quick look through the API docs for you. You are correct XMLValue is for expressing an atomic type and not a sequence, what you need is XmlResults which can be used for expressing a sequence of XMLValue. XMLResults myFiles = XMLManager.createResults(); myFiles.add(new XMLValue("value1")); myFiles.add(new XMLValue("value2")); xqc.setVariableValue("files", myFiles); -- Adam Retter sip:adam.retter@ekiga.net http://www.adamretter.org.uk From mlu at as-guides.com Mon Aug 10 19:42:20 2009 From: mlu at as-guides.com (Michael Ludwig) Date: Mon Aug 10 09:33:55 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] Programmatically constructing sequences ("a", "b", "c") for XQuery In-Reply-To: <4A8049E0.4010800@as-guides.com> References: <4A801F1A.4020302@as-guides.com> <4A8036B1.1020000@as-guides.com> <4A8049E0.4010800@as-guides.com> Message-ID: <4A804DEC.9020904@as-guides.com> Michael Ludwig schrieb: > I think I know what the problem is. The XmlValue constructor does not > seem designed to accept sequences. What I mean to be a sequence - > ('eins','zwei','drei') - is interpreted as a literal string. > > So I think a (somewhat kludgy) solution would be to construct a mini > document from the input parameters, store it in the database and then > join against that: > > > eins > zwei > drei > > > Or, preferably, use an XmlResolver. Much better than storing > parameters in the database, if only temporarily. For the record, these clumsy solutions aren't needed. Instead, as Andrew Welch pointed out, the solution is to not abuse the XmlValue interface, to simply pass in the string as a string with a suitable delimiter (like "eins,zwei,drei") and construct the sequence of strings at the XQuery level using the tokenize() function. String query = "declare variable $files as xs:string+ := tokenize($param, ','); " + "for $d in collection('ab')[//File = $files] order by $d/@ts return $d"; ... xqc.setVariableValue("param", new XmlValue("eins,zwei,drei")); (Or construct the XmlValue dynamically.) -- Michael Ludwig From gmf at maine.rr.com Mon Aug 10 13:44:32 2009 From: gmf at maine.rr.com (George Feinberg) Date: Mon Aug 10 09:36:04 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] Programmatically constructing sequences ("a", "b", "c") for XQuery In-Reply-To: <4A8049E0.4010800@as-guides.com> References: <4A801F1A.4020302@as-guides.com> <4A8036B1.1020000@as-guides.com> <4A8049E0.4010800@as-guides.com> Message-ID: <4107627A-FC21-4279-B750-C90A0B50FB02@maine.rr.com> On Aug 10, 2009, at 12:25 PM, Michael Ludwig wrote: > Adam Retter schrieb: >> I think the problem is that we are missing the bigger picture of the >> XQuery. >> >> You have some XQuery and you want to construct a sequence of strings, >> how in the XQuery do you get access to the data that you want to form >> a sequence of strings from? > > Hi Adam, > > you're absolutely right - I forgot to include the context; sorry for > that. The parameter is supplied programmatically in the query context, > which holds prefix-namespace-mappings, variables, etc. (For more > detail, > see XmlQueryContext in the DBXML documentation.) > > Using a literal: > > xqc.setVariableValue("files", new XmlValue("eins")); > > Using a StringBuilder: > > xqc.setVariableValue("files", new XmlValue(sb.toString())); > > Does that make it clear enough? > > I think I know what the problem is. The XmlValue constructor does not > seem designed to accept sequences. What I mean to be a sequence - > ('eins','zwei','drei') - is interpreted as a literal string. You can set variable values that are sequences. That is actually the default. The XmlValue-based version is just a short-cut for the XmlResults-based variant. Use: XmlResults res = mgr.createResults(); res.addValue(new XmlValue(...)); res.addValue(new XmlValue(...)); res.addValue(new XmlValue(...)); xqc.setVariableValue("files", res); George > > So I think a (somewhat kludgy) solution would be to construct a mini > document from the input parameters, store it in the database and then > join against that: > > > eins > zwei > drei > > > Or, preferably, use an XmlResolver. Much better than storing > parameters > in the database, if only temporarily. > > -- > Michael Ludwig > _______________________________________________ > talk@x-query.com > http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk From mlu at as-guides.com Mon Aug 10 19:56:08 2009 From: mlu at as-guides.com (Michael Ludwig) Date: Mon Aug 10 09:47:25 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] Programmatically constructing sequences ("a", "b", "c") for XQuery In-Reply-To: References: <4A801F1A.4020302@as-guides.com> <4A8036B1.1020000@as-guides.com> <4A8049E0.4010800@as-guides.com> Message-ID: <4A805128.5040409@as-guides.com> Adam Retter schrieb: > I am not familiar with Berkely XML DB, but I had a quick look through > the API docs for you. You are correct XMLValue is for expressing an > atomic type and not a sequence, what you need is XmlResults which can > be used for expressing a sequence of XMLValue. > > XMLResults myFiles = XMLManager.createResults(); > myFiles.add(new XMLValue("value1")); > myFiles.add(new XMLValue("value2")); > xqc.setVariableValue("files", myFiles); Adam and George, thanks for doing my homework! XmlResults values = mgr.createResults(); values.add(new XmlValue("value1")); values.add(new XmlValue("value2")); xqc.setVariableValue("files", values); Works perfectly. -- Michael Ludwig From andrew.eisenberg at us.ibm.com Thu Aug 13 18:12:55 2009 From: andrew.eisenberg at us.ibm.com (Andrew Eisenberg) Date: Thu Aug 13 13:58:10 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] [ANN] XQuery Update Facility Test Suite version 1.0.0 Message-ID: The XML Query Working Group would like to announce the availability of version 1.0.0 of the XQuery Update Facility Test Suite (XQUTS) at http://dev.w3.org/2007/xquery-update-10-test-suite/. This test suite reflects the XQuery Update Facility 1.0 Candidate Recommendation [1] that was published on June 9. We have provided guidelines on how to run the test suite, how to provide feedback to us, and how to send your results to us. We encourage implementors to run this test suite and provide their results to us. If enough positive results are received, then we will be able to request a transition to Proposed Recommendation. -- Andrew [1] XQuery Update Facility 1.0 http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/CR-xquery-update-10-20090609/ -------------------- Andrew Eisenberg IBM 4 Technology Park Drive Westford, MA 01886 andrew.eisenberg@us.ibm.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://x-query.com/pipermail/talk/attachments/20090813/a8eef274/attachment.htm From christian.gruen at gmail.com Sat Aug 15 00:28:12 2009 From: christian.gruen at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Christian_Gr=FCn?=) Date: Fri Aug 14 14:13:45 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] BaseX 5.7 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear all, we are pleased to announce version 5.7 of BaseX, our database for processing and visualizing large XML instances. The major features are as follows: - a completed XQuery Full Text implementation (both sequential and index-driven), based on the latest W3C Candidate Recommendation - many improvements on XQuery and index performance - a revised GUI with enhanced XQuery editing facilities - improved client/server stability and bug fixes - extended database statistics BaseX is open-source. It is developed by the DBIS Group at University of Konstanz. Please find more information (Downloads, Documentation) at ?http://basex.org/ If you are working with BaseX, we are very interested in more information (links, texts, screenshots, references) to your project. Please contact us! Best wishes, Christian BaseX Team ___________________________ Christian Gruen Universitaet Konstanz Department of Computer & Information Science D-78457 Konstanz, Germany Tel: +49 (0)7531/88-4449, Fax: +49 (0)7531/88-3577 http://www.inf.uni-konstanz.de/~gruen From ivanpedruzzi at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 18:09:28 2009 From: ivanpedruzzi at gmail.com (Ivan Pedruzzi) Date: Mon Aug 17 13:48:31 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] =?windows-1252?q?=5BANN=5D_2009_XML_Workshop=3A_Pr?= =?windows-1252?q?ocessing_your_customer=92s_data_formats?= Message-ID: <6ce57d220908171409i7b5759e3u3e206dce8c3058b6@mail.gmail.com> In September (Houston, Chicago, New York, Minneapolis) we are going to present the XML Workshops describing typical problems that IT organization involved in a variety of industry verticals often need to solve; and we wiil show how Data Integration Suite can help. As usual the workshops will be ?hands-on?, showing in practical terms how to use Data Integration Suite to complete tasks like: - Creating applications that deal with different versions and formats of EDI messages - Transforming EDI messages or XML documents into user-defined formats - Augmenting information in incoming EDI or XML messages with data available in relational databases or Web services - Exposing message cleansing operations as data services - Outputting data in industry standard EDI formats This is a great opportunity to see the Data Integration Suiteused in front of you to solve real problems. To attend you just need to register; you can do that here now . Ivan Pedruzzi Progress DataDirect Technologies -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://x-query.com/pipermail/talk/attachments/20090817/4fe68532/attachment.htm From jesse.wu68 at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 16:15:59 2009 From: jesse.wu68 at gmail.com (Jesse Wu) Date: Thu Aug 20 11:59:40 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] Excel XML Cell index problem Message-ID: Trying to evaluate if XQuery is the right tool to use to process large Excel workbook, XLS when save as XML: AAA YYY . . XXX . ... My XQuery code is looping through each row then the cells in each row, but unfortunately Microsoft Excel when save as XML skips empty cells, as the example above in the 1st row, the cells(columns) from 2 to 4 were missing before the 2nd cell with Index="5" which means it's actually column 5 (I was expecting to have 3 before it). Is there a way to code this in Xquery? My code: let $pads : = 0 for $i in 1 to count($Row/Cell) let $f := $i + $pads return { xu:padcells($Row/Cell[$i], $f) } {$tr/Cell[$i]} }; declare function xu:padcells($cl, $f) { let $t := xs:integer($cl/@Index) -1 (: let $pads := $pads + ($f - $t )+ 1 is there a way to get the total number of empty cells padded back to the calling code? :) for $x in $f to $t return }; Thanks in advance for all your help. -Jes From gkholman at CraneSoftwrights.com Thu Aug 20 18:38:35 2009 From: gkholman at CraneSoftwrights.com (G. Ken Holman) Date: Thu Aug 20 14:19:15 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] Excel XML Cell index problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090820155130.026777f8@wheresmymailserver.com> At 2009-08-20 15:15 -0400, Jesse Wu wrote: >Trying to evaluate if XQuery is the right tool to use to process large >Excel workbook, XLS when save as XML: Absolutely it is. >
> > AAA > YYY > . > . > XXX > . > > >... > > >My XQuery code is looping through each row then the cells in each row, So far so good ... but I think you are looking at the cells in the incorrect way. >but unfortunately Microsoft Excel when save as XML skips empty cells, >as the example above in the 1st row, the cells(columns) from 2 to 4 >were missing before the 2nd cell with Index="5" which means it's >actually column 5 (I was expecting to have 3 before it). So you want to create pad cells when you go to do "5" and find that it is out of sequence. I seem to recall also that cells after an indexed cell may not have an index attribute, so I've augmented your data with more conditions in the input. >Is there a way to code this in Xquery? Absolutely there is a way, but I think not by using the approach you did. >My code: > >let $pads : = 0 >for $i in 1 to count($Row/Cell) >let $f := $i + $pads >return > >{ xu:padcells($Row/Cell[$i], $f) } > >{$tr/Cell[$i]} > > > >}; > >declare function xu:padcells($cl, $f) >{ >let $t := xs:integer($cl/@Index) -1 >(: let $pads := $pads + ($f - $t )+ 1 is there a way to get the total >number of empty cells padded back to the calling code? :) >for $x in $f to $t >return > >}; > >Thanks in advance for all your help. It is unclear to me why you are treating the collection of cells as an array. That is a "programming approach" to working with XPath rather than a "tree approach" or a "path approach", nor is it taking advantage of the XPath function and operator library. Below is a working example that fills out all of the missing cells, and it does not do so by walking through an array index. Rather, it deals with missing cells when necessary, and does nothing with missing cells when they aren't necessary, and it walks over the cells one at a time without putting them all first into a variable. I find in the classroom those XQuery students who have a programming background will use constructs like arrays when they are not at all necessary. And in some ways, I feel doing so breaks the tree-based approach of working with XML. I hope you find the example below helpful. . . . . . . . . . . Ken T:\ftemp>type jesse.xml
AAA YYY BBB CCC ZZZ DDD XXX
T:\ftemp>call xquery jesse.xml jesse.xq AAA YYY BBB CCC ZZZ DDD XXX T:\ftemp>type jesse.xq { (:Walk all cells in the row:) for $c in Table/Row/Cell (:determine count of immediately preceding cells without an index attribute:) let $preceding-non-indexed := count( $c/preceding-sibling::Cell[not(@Index)] ) - count( $c/preceding-sibling::Cell[@Index][1]/ preceding-sibling::Cell[not(@Index)] ) (:which was the previously-specified index?:) let $preceding-index := ( $c/preceding-sibling::Cell[@Index][1]/@Index, 0 )[1] (:which was the last-specified index?:) let $preceding-or-this-index := ( $c/@Index, $c/preceding-sibling::Cell[@Index][1]/@Index, 0 )[1] return ( (:first fill any absent cells:) for $fill-index in xs:integer( $preceding-index + $preceding-non-indexed + 1 ) to xs:integer( $preceding-or-this-index - 1 ) return , (:then put out this given cell with an appropriate index:) {$c/node()} ) } T:\ftemp>rem Done! -- Interested in these classes? http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/q/i/ Crane Softwrights Ltd. http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/q/ Training tools: Comprehensive interactive XSLT/XPath 1.0/2.0 video Video lesson: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrNjJCh7Ppg&fmt=18 Video overview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTiodiij6gE&fmt=18 G. Ken Holman mailto:gkholman@CraneSoftwrights.com Male Cancer Awareness Nov'07 http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/q/bc Legal business disclaimers: http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/legal From mike at saxonica.com Thu Aug 20 23:50:27 2009 From: mike at saxonica.com (Michael Kay) Date: Thu Aug 20 14:30:55 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] Excel XML Cell index problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's a tough format to work with, this one. Generally it's best to preprocess it either (a) into a format where every Cell is explicitly present, or (b) into a format where every Cell is explicitly labelled with row and column attributes. The advantage is that this preprocessing is completely generic and reusable and can be done whatever processing you intend to do next. I found a neat way to add column numbers to all the cells using XSLT 2.0 grouping capabilities. It's something like this: With XQuery it will need a recursive function. If you're comfortable with recursion it's probably not very difficult, except at this time of night. Regards, Michael Kay http://www.saxonica.com/ http://twitter.com/michaelhkay > -----Original Message----- > From: talk-bounces@x-query.com > [mailto:talk-bounces@x-query.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Wu > Sent: 20 August 2009 20:16 > To: talk@x-query.com > Subject: [xquery-talk] Excel XML Cell index problem > > Trying to evaluate if XQuery is the right tool to use to > process large Excel workbook, XLS when save as XML: > > > AAA > YYY . > . > XXX > . > > > ... > > > My XQuery code is looping through each row then the cells in > each row, but unfortunately Microsoft Excel when save as XML > skips empty cells, as the example above in the 1st row, the > cells(columns) from 2 to 4 were missing before the 2nd cell > with Index="5" which means it's actually column 5 (I was > expecting to have 3 before it). Is there a way to > code this in Xquery? > > My code: > > let $pads : = 0 > for $i in 1 to count($Row/Cell) > let $f := $i + $pads > return > > { xu:padcells($Row/Cell[$i], $f) } > > {$tr/Cell[$i]} > > > > }; > > declare function xu:padcells($cl, $f) > { > let $t := xs:integer($cl/@Index) -1 > (: let $pads := $pads + ($f - $t )+ 1 is there a way to get > the total number of empty cells padded back to the calling > code? :) for $x in $f to $t return > > }; > > Thanks in advance for all your help. > > -Jes > _______________________________________________ > talk@x-query.com > http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk From jesse.wu68 at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 22:03:25 2009 From: jesse.wu68 at gmail.com (Jesse Wu) Date: Thu Aug 20 17:39:19 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] Excel XML Cell index problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Ken/Michael, Thank you so much. These 2 programs are brilliant. I now realized that not only XQuery I also need to polish up my XPATH and XSLT skills. With kind regards, -Jes On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 5:50 PM, Michael Kay wrote: > > It's a tough format to work with, this one. Generally it's best to > preprocess it either > > (a) into a format where every Cell is explicitly present, or > > (b) into a format where every Cell is explicitly labelled with row and > column attributes. > > The advantage is that this preprocessing is completely generic and reusable > and can be done whatever processing you intend to do next. > > I found a neat way to add column numbers to all the cells using XSLT 2.0 > grouping capabilities. It's something like this: > > > ? > ? > ? ? > ? ? ? > ? ? ? > ? ? > ? > > > > With XQuery it will need a recursive function. If you're comfortable with > recursion it's probably not very difficult, except at this time of night. > > Regards, > > Michael Kay > http://www.saxonica.com/ > http://twitter.com/michaelhkay > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: talk-bounces@x-query.com >> [mailto:talk-bounces@x-query.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Wu >> Sent: 20 August 2009 20:16 >> To: talk@x-query.com >> Subject: [xquery-talk] Excel XML Cell index problem >> >> Trying to evaluate if XQuery is the right tool to use to >> process large Excel workbook, XLS when save as XML: >>
>> >> ?AAA >> ?YYY ?. >> ?. >> ?XXX >> ?. >> >> >> ... >> >> >> My XQuery code is looping through each row then the cells in >> each row, but unfortunately Microsoft Excel when save as XML >> skips empty cells, as the example above in the 1st row, the >> cells(columns) from 2 to 4 were missing before the 2nd cell >> with Index="5" which means it's actually column 5 (I was >> expecting to have 3 before it). Is there a way to >> code this in Xquery? >> >> My code: >> >> let $pads : = 0 >> for $i in 1 to count($Row/Cell) >> let $f := $i + $pads >> return >> >> { ?xu:padcells($Row/Cell[$i], $f) } >> >> {$tr/Cell[$i]} >> >> >> >> }; >> >> declare function xu:padcells($cl, $f) >> { >> let $t := xs:integer($cl/@Index) -1 >> (: let $pads := $pads + ($f - $t )+ 1 is there a way to get >> the total number of empty cells padded back to the calling >> code? :) for $x in $f to $t return >> ? ? ? >> }; >> >> Thanks in advance for all your help. >> >> -Jes >> _______________________________________________ >> talk@x-query.com >> http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk > > From dflorescu at mac.com Wed Aug 26 11:07:02 2009 From: dflorescu at mac.com (Daniela Florescu) Date: Wed Aug 26 10:00:27 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community Message-ID: <92F57853-837A-4860-9F78-A337E039D74C@mac.com> Dear all, almost every time when I give a talk about XQuery I get confronted with the same question, to which I do not know the answer. The question from the audience always is: " How many XQuery developers are there? " -- with the underlying assumption that, indeed, there are not that many. Please help me with this. I honestly don't know the answer. How do you appreciate the size of the XQuery developers community ? (thousands, tens of thousands, millions !!??) Thanks in advance, best regards Dana From marcus at mercatorit.com Wed Aug 26 19:14:39 2009 From: marcus at mercatorit.com (Marcus Clemens) Date: Wed Aug 26 10:08:00 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community References: <92F57853-837A-4860-9F78-A337E039D74C@mac.com> Message-ID: <9BCC2AEA2D8704498C240217CA020E3A370FFC@SERVER1.smallbusiness.local> I am a recruitment consultant in the UK and I have only come across about 20 good ones here . if anyone wants to send their CV please do Kind regards Marcus Clemens Director & Senior Consultant Mercator IT Ltd Tel: 01892 611161 Fax: 01892 660185 Email: marcus@mercatorit.com Cooks Corner Business Park, The Old Saw Mill, London Road, Crowborough TN6 1TQ Registered in England no: 05755983 Registered office: 117 Dartford Road, Dartford, Kent DA1 3EN This email may contain privileged/confidential information and is for the intended addressee only. If you have received this message in error then you must not use, retain, disseminate or otherwise deal with it.? Please notify the sender by return email and destroy. The views of the author may not necessarily constitute the views of Mercator IT Solutions Ltd. Nothing in this email shall bind Mercator IT Solutions Ltd in any contract or obligation. -----Original Message----- From: talk-bounces@x-query.com [mailto:talk-bounces@x-query.com] On Behalf Of Daniela Florescu Sent: 26 August 2009 18:07 To: talk@x-query.com Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community Dear all, almost every time when I give a talk about XQuery I get confronted with the same question, to which I do not know the answer. The question from the audience always is: " How many XQuery developers are there? " -- with the underlying assumption that, indeed, there are not that many. Please help me with this. I honestly don't know the answer. How do you appreciate the size of the XQuery developers community ? (thousands, tens of thousands, millions !!??) Thanks in advance, best regards Dana _______________________________________________ talk@x-query.com http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk From gkholman at CraneSoftwrights.com Wed Aug 26 15:19:12 2009 From: gkholman at CraneSoftwrights.com (G. Ken Holman) Date: Wed Aug 26 10:13:03 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: <92F57853-837A-4860-9F78-A337E039D74C@mac.com> References: <92F57853-837A-4860-9F78-A337E039D74C@mac.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090826141058.02653e60@wheresmymailserver.com> At 2009-08-26 10:07 -0700, Daniela Florescu wrote: >almost every time when I give a talk about XQuery I get confronted >with the same question, to which I do not know the answer. How would you characterize the people asking such a question, in that how would the answer help them in why they are asking? >The question from the audience always is: " How many XQuery developers >are there? " >-- with the underlying assumption that, indeed, there are not that many. > >Please help me with this. How could one possibly come up with an answer for that question? How many XSLT developers are out there? >I honestly don't know the answer. Who could? >How do you appreciate the size of the XQuery developers community ? >(thousands, >tens of thousands, millions !!??) In North America? In Europe? In China? All I can say is that in my combined XSLT/XQuery hands-on classes so far in North America the ratio of students attending who are focused on XSLT vs those who are focused on XQuery is about 4 to 1. All that tells me is that at this time there are more people interested in learning XSLT than learning XQuery. You may want to extrapolate such a relatively small sample into a general rule, just don't tell any statisticians. . . . . . . . . . . . Ken -- Interested in these classes? http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/q/i/ Crane Softwrights Ltd. http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/q/ Training tools: Comprehensive interactive XSLT/XPath 1.0/2.0 video Video lesson: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrNjJCh7Ppg&fmt=18 Video overview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTiodiij6gE&fmt=18 G. Ken Holman mailto:gkholman@CraneSoftwrights.com Male Cancer Awareness Nov'07 http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/q/bc Legal business disclaimers: http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/legal From dsewell at virginia.edu Wed Aug 26 14:27:31 2009 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Wed Aug 26 10:20:46 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: <92F57853-837A-4860-9F78-A337E039D74C@mac.com> References: <92F57853-837A-4860-9F78-A337E039D74C@mac.com> Message-ID: This reminds me of the old joke about how to count sheep in a field: "count the number of legs, then divide by 4". So for a first-order approximation, let's compare the ratio of emails about XQuery to emails about Perl using the search at markmail.org: XQuery = 45230 Perl = 1342154 So... there is about 1 XQuery programmer for every 33 Perl programmers. Count the number of Perl programmers, and there is the answer! (Seriously, one could do this for several languages to get a very rough idea of the popularity of different ones.) On Wed, 26 Aug 2009, Daniela Florescu wrote: > Dear all, > > almost every time when I give a talk about XQuery I get confronted > with the same question, to which I do not know the answer. > > The question from the audience always is: " How many XQuery developers are > there? " > -- with the underlying assumption that, indeed, there are not that many. > > Please help me with this. I honestly don't know the answer. > > How do you appreciate the size of the XQuery developers community ? > (thousands, > tens of thousands, millions !!??) > > Thanks in advance, best regards > Dana > > > > _______________________________________________ > talk@x-query.com > http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell@virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From dsewell at virginia.edu Wed Aug 26 14:32:17 2009 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Wed Aug 26 10:25:09 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: References: <92F57853-837A-4860-9F78-A337E039D74C@mac.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Aug 2009, David Sewell wrote: > So... there is about 1 XQuery programmer for every 33 Perl programmers. > Count the number of Perl programmers, and there is the answer! s/33/30/ apparently XQuery programmers aren't too good at math, sorry... From dflorescu at mac.com Wed Aug 26 11:39:13 2009 From: dflorescu at mac.com (Daniela Florescu) Date: Wed Aug 26 10:31:55 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: <9BCC2AEA2D8704498C240217CA020E3A370FFC@SERVER1.smallbusiness.local> References: <92F57853-837A-4860-9F78-A337E039D74C@mac.com> <9BCC2AEA2D8704498C240217CA020E3A370FFC@SERVER1.smallbusiness.local> Message-ID: Thanks. Here comes my second question to which I'd appreciate an insight: 2) Is the demand for XQuery developers larger then the offer ? Thanks Dana On Aug 26, 2009, at 10:14 AM, Marcus Clemens wrote: > I am a recruitment consultant in the UK and I have only come across > about 20 good ones here . if anyone wants to send their CV please do > > Kind regards > > Marcus Clemens > Director & Senior Consultant > Mercator IT Ltd > > Tel: 01892 611161 > Fax: 01892 660185 > Email: marcus@mercatorit.com > Cooks Corner Business Park, The Old Saw Mill, London Road, > Crowborough TN6 1TQ > > Registered in England no: 05755983 > Registered office: 117 Dartford Road, Dartford, Kent DA1 3EN > > This email may contain privileged/confidential information and is > for the intended addressee only. If you have received this message > in error then you must not use, retain, disseminate or otherwise > deal with it. Please notify the sender by return email and > destroy. The views of the author may not necessarily constitute the > views of Mercator IT Solutions Ltd. Nothing in this email shall > bind Mercator IT Solutions Ltd in any contract or obligation. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: talk-bounces@x-query.com [mailto:talk-bounces@x-query.com] On > Behalf Of Daniela Florescu > Sent: 26 August 2009 18:07 > To: talk@x-query.com > Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community > > Dear all, > > almost every time when I give a talk about XQuery I get confronted > with the same question, to which I do not know the answer. > > The question from the audience always is: " How many XQuery developers > are there? " > -- with the underlying assumption that, indeed, there are not that > many. > > Please help me with this. I honestly don't know the answer. > > How do you appreciate the size of the XQuery developers community ? > (thousands, > tens of thousands, millions !!??) > > Thanks in advance, best regards > Dana > > > > _______________________________________________ > talk@x-query.com > http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk From james.fuller.2007 at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 20:42:53 2009 From: james.fuller.2007 at gmail.com (James Fuller) Date: Wed Aug 26 10:35:28 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090826141058.02653e60@wheresmymailserver.com> References: <92F57853-837A-4860-9F78-A337E039D74C@mac.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090826141058.02653e60@wheresmymailserver.com> Message-ID: partioning the question a little, I think there are 5 groups of developers with respect to xquery: I) developers who have done no xquery and never heard about it II) developers who have done no xquery but heard about it III) developers who may briefly engaged with xquery, either as a config/bug fix/hack/maintenance/research activity IV) developers who have spent some time doing some small projects with xquery as a component V) developers who have spend a significant amount of their day coding in xquery while its not possible to nail down numbers (all the usual caveats apply) I would venture that of the above groups that that the last two are limited to 100's - 1000's ... its quite possible that there may be a magnitude greater number of developers in the III) group and maybe even higher, but I have no feel for this. I base these estimations on the following purely qualitative measures: * number of recruiters calling me (I fall in the V. group) and them consistently repeating the dearth of xquery talent * number of people interacting with technologies I am involved with e.g. eXist XML Database and most of the projects I am involved with have some xquery component * xml technology conferences which number in the low hundreds, rather then thousands, of which xquery is a topic which is a subset It is clear to me that XQuery is experiencing higher adoption rates and getting used more (exp in context of XML databases). hth, Jim Fuller From dflorescu at mac.com Wed Aug 26 11:47:23 2009 From: dflorescu at mac.com (Daniela Florescu) Date: Wed Aug 26 10:39:52 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090826141058.02653e60@wheresmymailserver.com> References: <92F57853-837A-4860-9F78-A337E039D74C@mac.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090826141058.02653e60@wheresmymailserver.com> Message-ID: Ken, On Aug 26, 2009, at 10:19 AM, G. Ken Holman wrote: > At 2009-08-26 10:07 -0700, Daniela Florescu wrote: >> almost every time when I give a talk about XQuery I get confronted >> with the same question, to which I do not know the answer. > > How would you characterize the people asking such a question, in > that how would the answer help them in why they are asking? Non believers :-) I think their question is a fair question to ask. What would be helpful would be obviously not an absolute number, but an order of magnitude, or the relative importance of the XQuery dev community with respect to other communities. The "absolute truth" isn't interesting. What is more interesting are personal guesses, experiences and anecdotes from people on this mailing list. (and no, I am not gone tell any statistician ... :-) Best regards Dana From dlee at calldei.com Wed Aug 26 14:52:06 2009 From: dlee at calldei.com (David A. Lee) Date: Wed Aug 26 10:44:38 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: References: <92F57853-837A-4860-9F78-A337E039D74C@mac.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090826141058.02653e60@wheresmymailserver.com> Message-ID: <4A957646.1030402@calldei.com> Its *got* to be more then the "100s" Just looking at marklogic.com they list 43 customers ... and those are the ones they publish. There must be more then 2 developers per customer. The ML developer confrence was bigger then that. Plus of course the ML dev team itself. And thats just 1 company. Add to that Oracle, IBM and Microsoft XQuery implementations and the developers just to *write* those have got to exceed the "100s" Then there's all the uncountable folks using eXist, xmldb , Saxon etc. ( which must outweigh the paying customers by atleast 10x ...) David A. Lee dlee@calldei.com http://www.calldei.com http://www.xmlsh.org 812-482-5224 James Fuller wrote: > partioning the question a little, I think there are 5 groups of > developers with respect to xquery: > > I) developers who have done no xquery and never heard about it > > II) developers who have done no xquery but heard about it > > III) developers who may briefly engaged with xquery, either as a > config/bug fix/hack/maintenance/research activity > > IV) developers who have spent some time doing some small projects with > xquery as a component > > V) developers who have spend a significant amount of their day coding in xquery > > while its not possible to nail down numbers (all the usual caveats > apply) I would venture that of the above groups that that the last two > are limited to 100's - 1000's ... its quite possible that there may be > a magnitude greater number of developers in the III) group and maybe > even higher, but I have no feel for this. > > I base these estimations on the following purely qualitative measures: > > * number of recruiters calling me (I fall in the V. group) and them > consistently repeating the dearth of xquery talent > > * number of people interacting with technologies I am involved with > e.g. eXist XML Database and most of the projects I am involved with > have some xquery component > > * xml technology conferences which number in the low hundreds, rather > then thousands, of which xquery is a topic which is a subset > > It is clear to me that XQuery is experiencing higher adoption rates > and getting used more (exp in context of XML databases). > > hth, Jim Fuller > _______________________________________________ > talk@x-query.com > http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk > From adam.retter at googlemail.com Wed Aug 26 20:11:15 2009 From: adam.retter at googlemail.com (Adam Retter) Date: Wed Aug 26 11:03:12 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: References: <92F57853-837A-4860-9F78-A337E039D74C@mac.com> <9BCC2AEA2D8704498C240217CA020E3A370FFC@SERVER1.smallbusiness.local> Message-ID: > Here comes my second question to which I'd appreciate an insight: > > 2) Is the demand for XQuery developers larger then the offer ? A company I previously worked for in Exeter, Devon, UK tried to recruit a full-time XQuery/XSLT developer in late 2006 and found it almost impossible, again in 2008 they could only find consultants who certainly were not experts in the field. > Thanks > Dana > > > > > > On Aug 26, 2009, at 10:14 AM, Marcus Clemens wrote: > >> I am a recruitment consultant in the UK and I have only come across about >> 20 good ones here . if anyone wants to send their CV please do >> >> Kind regards >> >> Marcus Clemens >> Director & Senior Consultant >> Mercator IT Ltd >> >> Tel: 01892 611161 >> Fax: 01892 660185 >> Email: marcus@mercatorit.com >> Cooks Corner Business Park, The Old Saw Mill, London Road, Crowborough TN6 >> 1TQ >> >> Registered in England no: 05755983 >> Registered office: 117 Dartford Road, Dartford, Kent DA1 3EN >> >> This email may contain privileged/confidential information and is for the >> intended addressee only. ?If you have received this message in error then >> you must not use, retain, disseminate or otherwise deal with it. ?Please >> notify the sender by return email and destroy. ?The views of the author may >> not necessarily constitute the views of Mercator IT Solutions Ltd. ?Nothing >> in this email shall bind Mercator IT Solutions Ltd in any contract or >> obligation. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: talk-bounces@x-query.com [mailto:talk-bounces@x-query.com] On Behalf >> Of Daniela Florescu >> Sent: 26 August 2009 18:07 >> To: talk@x-query.com >> Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community >> >> Dear all, >> >> almost every time when I give a talk about XQuery I get confronted >> with the same ?question, to which I do not know the answer. >> >> The question from the audience always is: " How many XQuery developers >> are there? " >> -- with the underlying assumption that, indeed, there are not that many. >> >> Please help me with this. I honestly don't know the answer. >> >> How do you appreciate the size of the XQuery developers community ? >> (thousands, >> tens of thousands, millions !!??) >> >> Thanks in advance, best regards >> Dana >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> talk@x-query.com >> http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk > > _______________________________________________ > talk@x-query.com > http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk > -- Adam Retter skype :adam.retter http://www.adamretter.org.uk From dflorescu at mac.com Wed Aug 26 12:17:05 2009 From: dflorescu at mac.com (Daniela Florescu) Date: Wed Aug 26 11:08:59 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: References: <92F57853-837A-4860-9F78-A337E039D74C@mac.com> <9BCC2AEA2D8704498C240217CA020E3A370FFC@SERVER1.smallbusiness.local> Message-ID: <309E3D7D-E546-4022-B166-BDB956B0AB25@mac.com> I got several private answers to this question, all with the same comment: in all cases people looked for XQuery developers and cannot find any. Unfortunately XQuery will remain a niche language if this situation persists. How did other languages/communities solve this kind of growing pain ? Any suggestions ? Thanks !! Dana On Aug 26, 2009, at 11:11 AM, Adam Retter wrote: >> Here comes my second question to which I'd appreciate an insight: >> >> 2) Is the demand for XQuery developers larger then the offer ? > > A company I previously worked for in Exeter, Devon, UK tried to > recruit a full-time XQuery/XSLT developer in late 2006 and found it > almost impossible, again in 2008 they could only find consultants who > certainly were not experts in the field. > > >> Thanks >> Dana >> >> >> >> >> >> On Aug 26, 2009, at 10:14 AM, Marcus Clemens wrote: >> >>> I am a recruitment consultant in the UK and I have only come >>> across about >>> 20 good ones here . if anyone wants to send their CV please do >>> >>> Kind regards >>> >>> Marcus Clemens >>> Director & Senior Consultant >>> Mercator IT Ltd >>> >>> Tel: 01892 611161 >>> Fax: 01892 660185 >>> Email: marcus@mercatorit.com >>> Cooks Corner Business Park, The Old Saw Mill, London Road, >>> Crowborough TN6 >>> 1TQ >>> >>> Registered in England no: 05755983 >>> Registered office: 117 Dartford Road, Dartford, Kent DA1 3EN >>> >>> This email may contain privileged/confidential information and is >>> for the >>> intended addressee only. If you have received this message in >>> error then >>> you must not use, retain, disseminate or otherwise deal with it. >>> Please >>> notify the sender by return email and destroy. The views of the >>> author may >>> not necessarily constitute the views of Mercator IT Solutions >>> Ltd. Nothing >>> in this email shall bind Mercator IT Solutions Ltd in any contract >>> or >>> obligation. >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: talk-bounces@x-query.com [mailto:talk-bounces@x-query.com] >>> On Behalf >>> Of Daniela Florescu >>> Sent: 26 August 2009 18:07 >>> To: talk@x-query.com >>> Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community >>> >>> Dear all, >>> >>> almost every time when I give a talk about XQuery I get confronted >>> with the same question, to which I do not know the answer. >>> >>> The question from the audience always is: " How many XQuery >>> developers >>> are there? " >>> -- with the underlying assumption that, indeed, there are not that >>> many. >>> >>> Please help me with this. I honestly don't know the answer. >>> >>> How do you appreciate the size of the XQuery developers community ? >>> (thousands, >>> tens of thousands, millions !!??) >>> >>> Thanks in advance, best regards >>> Dana >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> talk@x-query.com >>> http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk >> >> _______________________________________________ >> talk@x-query.com >> http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk >> > > > > -- > Adam Retter > > skype :adam.retter > http://www.adamretter.org.uk From vyacheslav.sedov at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 23:22:02 2009 From: vyacheslav.sedov at gmail.com (Vyacheslav Sedov) Date: Wed Aug 26 11:13:54 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: <4A957646.1030402@calldei.com> References: <92F57853-837A-4860-9F78-A337E039D74C@mac.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090826141058.02653e60@wheresmymailserver.com> <4A957646.1030402@calldei.com> Message-ID: <7ab7cbac0908261122j172620c2y65dd3a0bb6526303@mail.gmail.com> to count just XQuery developers - not so clear, eXist developer & Marklogic developer differ from each other (compare mySQL, Oracle and MS SQL - we don`t count this as common SQL developer also - XQuery-centric application or Java-centric application (C# or other dinosaur) in first case developer is respectable creator, in second just foolish "coder" ("it should spread lotion on skin" (?) The Silence of the Lambs) On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 9:52 PM, David A. Lee wrote: > Its *got* to be more then the "100s" > > Just looking at marklogic.com they list 43 customers ... and those are the > ones they publish. > There must be more then 2 developers per customer. ?The ML developer > confrence was bigger then that. > Plus of course the ML dev team itself. > > And thats just 1 company. > Add to that Oracle, IBM and Microsoft XQuery implementations and the > developers just to *write* those have got to exceed the "100s" > > Then there's all the uncountable folks using eXist, xmldb , Saxon etc. > ( which must outweigh the paying customers by atleast 10x ...) > > > > David A. Lee > dlee@calldei.com ?http://www.calldei.com > http://www.xmlsh.org > 812-482-5224 > > > > James Fuller wrote: >> >> partioning the question a little, I think there are 5 groups of >> developers with respect to xquery: >> >> I) developers who have done no xquery and never heard about it >> >> II) developers who have done no xquery but heard about it >> >> III) developers who may briefly engaged with xquery, either as a >> config/bug fix/hack/maintenance/research activity >> >> IV) developers who have spent some time doing some small projects with >> xquery as a component >> >> V) developers who have spend a significant amount of their day coding in >> xquery >> >> while its not possible to nail down numbers (all the usual caveats >> apply) I would venture that of the above groups that that the last two >> are limited to 100's - 1000's ... its quite possible that there may be >> a magnitude greater number of developers in the III) group and maybe >> even higher, but I have no feel for this. >> >> I base these estimations on the following purely qualitative measures: >> >> * number of recruiters calling me (I fall in the V. group) and them >> consistently repeating the dearth of xquery talent >> >> * number of people interacting with technologies I am involved with >> e.g. eXist XML Database and most of the projects I am involved with >> have some xquery component >> >> * xml technology conferences which number in the low hundreds, rather >> then thousands, of which xquery is a topic which is a subset >> >> It is clear to me that XQuery is experiencing higher adoption rates >> and getting used more (exp in context of XML databases). >> >> hth, Jim ?Fuller >> _______________________________________________ >> talk@x-query.com >> http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk >> > > _______________________________________________ > talk@x-query.com > http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk > From james.fuller.2007 at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 21:29:44 2009 From: james.fuller.2007 at gmail.com (James Fuller) Date: Wed Aug 26 11:21:25 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: <4A957646.1030402@calldei.com> References: <92F57853-837A-4860-9F78-A337E039D74C@mac.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090826141058.02653e60@wheresmymailserver.com> <4A957646.1030402@calldei.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 7:52 PM, David A. Lee wrote: > Its *got* to be more then the "100s" I said between 100's - 1000's of the last few groups > Just looking at marklogic.com they list 43 customers ... and those are the > ones they publish. ml is a relatively small company (100-150 people I think) ... as for Oracle, MS, Sun I very much doubt that any of these companies have more then 15-20 people max significantly working on xquery code generation, and I think the reality is that there will be less then that, but happy to be corrected. ml conference was upwards to 400 ... but even of this number the % of people who actually write xquery code will be less. Balisage was probably a few hundred, and XML Prague (of which I help run) is less then 150). what I have absolutely no feel for is XQuery usage in asia/orient ... I will take a look at eXist downloads ... wonder if MKay could comment; I travelled to Beijing last year and spoke with several programmers none of which were actively engaged in XML technologies, which surprised me. > Then there's all the uncountable folks using eXist, xmldb , Saxon etc. > ( which must outweigh the paying customers by atleast 10x ...) > well there are some things we can count like downloads ... goto sourceforge but there are many more from uncountable sources like those people using source control to integrate. I regularly deal with people using eXist and help them sort out issues ... you get familiar of where the XQuery hotspots around the world and what companies are pouring significant resources towards using XQuery ... its clear that: * XQuery talent is thin on the ground, I count less then 20-30 people I would consider experts in XQuery within Europe * I find many XSLT people are quite handy with XQuery and the two work together better then expected * XML database usage is driving adoption * xquery usage is increasing as need for processing larger data sets, and perception that other technologies (like XSLT) are too difficult ... XSLT seems to have a 'marmite' type effect on people , who either u love it or hate it Jim Fuller From kennorth at sbcglobal.net Wed Aug 26 12:31:35 2009 From: kennorth at sbcglobal.net (Ken North) Date: Wed Aug 26 11:23:12 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: <4A957646.1030402@calldei.com> References: <92F57853-837A-4860-9F78-A337E039D74C@mac.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090826141058.02653e60@wheresmymailserver.com> <4A957646.1030402@calldei.com> Message-ID: <502888.4193.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> It's easier to compare?how much is written for the?XQuery web audience versus some well-known languages. Google reports: Java????????????????? 275 million pages, but that's all references to Java (coffee, place and language) C#????????????????????? 47.6 million Visual Basic??????? 31.4 million COBOL???????????????? 6.4 million pages XQuery????????????????? 1.14 million pages There is not a direct correlation with developer community size but web searches are an indication of interest in a language. The trend for COBOL is a declining number of searches. For XQuery, it's been relatively stable for five years. In terms of news references, XQuery is also relatively stable. http://www.google.com/trends?q=XQuery%2C+COBOL&ctab=1952996178&geo=all&date=all Other facts on interest: The top six?languages (in order) for?XQuery searches were Korean, Czech, English, Russian, Japanese and Chinese. Bangalore,?San Jose, Chennai, Mumbai, Prague and San Francisco, in that order,?are the top cities?for XQuery searches.? India, Czech Republic, South Korea, Russian Federation, Singapore and Switzerland are the top regions for XQuery searches. XQuery vs. WSDL trend http://www.google.com/trends?q=XQuery%2C+WSDL&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0 XQuery vs. XSLT trend http://www.google.com/trends?q=XQuery%2C+XSLT&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0 From dlee at calldei.com Wed Aug 26 15:31:41 2009 From: dlee at calldei.com (David A. Lee) Date: Wed Aug 26 11:23:24 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: <7ab7cbac0908261122j172620c2y65dd3a0bb6526303@mail.gmail.com> References: <92F57853-837A-4860-9F78-A337E039D74C@mac.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090826141058.02653e60@wheresmymailserver.com> <4A957646.1030402@calldei.com> <7ab7cbac0908261122j172620c2y65dd3a0bb6526303@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A957F8D.9040503@calldei.com> Is there such a thing at all as " Developer" ? In the way your describing, the example of the # of "common SQL Developer" ... I think that would be Zero. No one develops in the abstract ... (except perhaps theorists but then they don't "develop"). Every developer I know uses a technology as part of a larger context. To get a job done. Hence III - IV in James' description. I would certainly count anyone developing with MarkLogic or eXist an "XQuery Developer" in any practical sense, just as I would count an Oracle Developer as a "SQL Developer". I wont even touch the comment about who's "foolish" :) David A. Lee dlee@calldei.com http://www.calldei.com http://www.xmlsh.org 812-482-5224 Vyacheslav Sedov wrote: > to count just XQuery developers - not so clear, eXist developer & > Marklogic developer differ from each other (compare mySQL, Oracle and > MS SQL - we don`t count this as common SQL developer > > also - XQuery-centric application or Java-centric application (C# or > other dinosaur) in first case developer is respectable creator, in > second just foolish "coder" ("it should spread lotion on skin" (?) > The Silence of the Lambs) > > On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 9:52 PM, David A. Lee wrote: > >> Its *got* to be more then the "100s" >> >> Just looking at marklogic.com they list 43 customers ... and those are the >> ones they publish. >> There must be more then 2 developers per customer. The ML developer >> confrence was bigger then that. >> Plus of course the ML dev team itself. >> >> And thats just 1 company. >> Add to that Oracle, IBM and Microsoft XQuery implementations and the >> developers just to *write* those have got to exceed the "100s" >> >> Then there's all the uncountable folks using eXist, xmldb , Saxon etc. >> ( which must outweigh the paying customers by atleast 10x ...) >> >> >> >> David A. Lee >> dlee@calldei.com http://www.calldei.com >> http://www.xmlsh.org >> 812-482-5224 >> >> >> >> James Fuller wrote: >> >>> partioning the question a little, I think there are 5 groups of >>> developers with respect to xquery: >>> >>> I) developers who have done no xquery and never heard about it >>> >>> II) developers who have done no xquery but heard about it >>> >>> III) developers who may briefly engaged with xquery, either as a >>> config/bug fix/hack/maintenance/research activity >>> >>> IV) developers who have spent some time doing some small projects with >>> xquery as a component >>> >>> V) developers who have spend a significant amount of their day coding in >>> xquery >>> >>> while its not possible to nail down numbers (all the usual caveats >>> apply) I would venture that of the above groups that that the last two >>> are limited to 100's - 1000's ... its quite possible that there may be >>> a magnitude greater number of developers in the III) group and maybe >>> even higher, but I have no feel for this. >>> >>> I base these estimations on the following purely qualitative measures: >>> >>> * number of recruiters calling me (I fall in the V. group) and them >>> consistently repeating the dearth of xquery talent >>> >>> * number of people interacting with technologies I am involved with >>> e.g. eXist XML Database and most of the projects I am involved with >>> have some xquery component >>> >>> * xml technology conferences which number in the low hundreds, rather >>> then thousands, of which xquery is a topic which is a subset >>> >>> It is clear to me that XQuery is experiencing higher adoption rates >>> and getting used more (exp in context of XML databases). >>> >>> hth, Jim Fuller >>> _______________________________________________ >>> talk@x-query.com >>> http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> talk@x-query.com >> http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk >> >> From michael.reiche at oracle.com Wed Aug 26 12:37:03 2009 From: michael.reiche at oracle.com (Michael Reiche) Date: Wed Aug 26 11:28:46 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: References: <92F57853-837A-4860-9F78-A337E039D74C@mac.com> <9BCC2AEA2D8704498C240217CA020E3A370FFC@SERVER1.smallbusiness.local F35869FE-756B-4783-9024-E78351629A73@mac.com> Message-ID: <36618983-b9cf-4458-9731-2339205efab7@default> Google shows 278M hits for java and 1.14M hits for xquery. dice.com shows five job listings with "Xquery" in the title, a total of 82 jobs with xquery in the description (curiously, all but one of the five are in Ohio - a veritable Xquery hotbed? more likely the same job posted my multiple agencies). So if you're an out-of-work xquery developer, you don't have a lot of options. for comparision, dice shows show 2633 jobs with "java" in the title and 8945 jobs with "java" in the description). so this places the Java:Xquery ratio somewhere around 100:1, 250:1, 500:1 Call it 250:1. Googling around I find a figure of 6.5M java developers, at 250:1, that would imply 26,000 xquery developers (sounds way high). If I Google to find resumes that contain Xquery - I get 901. Considering that JavaOne draws 15,000 attendees, XqueryOne would draw 60. - Mike -----Original Message----- From: Daniela Florescu [mailto:dflorescu@mac.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 10:39 AM To: Marcus Clemens Cc: talk@x-query.com Subject: Re: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community Thanks. Here comes my second question to which I'd appreciate an insight: 2) Is the demand for XQuery developers larger then the offer ? Thanks Dana On Aug 26, 2009, at 10:14 AM, Marcus Clemens wrote: > I am a recruitment consultant in the UK and I have only come across > about 20 good ones here . if anyone wants to send their CV please do > > Kind regards > > Marcus Clemens > Director & Senior Consultant > Mercator IT Ltd > > Tel: 01892 611161 > Fax: 01892 660185 > Email: marcus@mercatorit.com > Cooks Corner Business Park, The Old Saw Mill, London Road, Crowborough > TN6 1TQ > > Registered in England no: 05755983 > Registered office: 117 Dartford Road, Dartford, Kent DA1 3EN > > This email may contain privileged/confidential information and is for > the intended addressee only. If you have received this message in > error then you must not use, retain, disseminate or otherwise deal > with it. Please notify the sender by return email and destroy. The > views of the author may not necessarily constitute the views of > Mercator IT Solutions Ltd. Nothing in this email shall bind Mercator > IT Solutions Ltd in any contract or obligation. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: talk-bounces@x-query.com [mailto:talk-bounces@x-query.com] On > Behalf Of Daniela Florescu > Sent: 26 August 2009 18:07 > To: talk@x-query.com > Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community > > Dear all, > > almost every time when I give a talk about XQuery I get confronted > with the same question, to which I do not know the answer. > > The question from the audience always is: " How many XQuery developers > are there? " > -- with the underlying assumption that, indeed, there are not that > many. > > Please help me with this. I honestly don't know the answer. > > How do you appreciate the size of the XQuery developers community ? > (thousands, > tens of thousands, millions !!??) > > Thanks in advance, best regards > Dana > > > > _______________________________________________ > talk@x-query.com > http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk _______________________________________________ talk@x-query.com http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk From kennorth at sbcglobal.net Wed Aug 26 12:57:33 2009 From: kennorth at sbcglobal.net (Ken North) Date: Wed Aug 26 11:48:41 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: <309E3D7D-E546-4022-B166-BDB956B0AB25@mac.com> References: <92F57853-837A-4860-9F78-A337E039D74C@mac.com> <9BCC2AEA2D8704498C240217CA020E3A370FFC@SERVER1.smallbusiness.local> <309E3D7D-E546-4022-B166-BDB956B0AB25@mac.com> Message-ID: <94626.15034.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Another way to slice the data is to look at?adoption in specific industries: Healthcare's XML Heartbeat http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/data/library/dmmag/DMMag_2009_Issue2/Industry/index.html >From there, you can look?at the platforms being used by?that industry and whether they?integrate XML and XQuery (e.g., Oracle 11g, IBM DB2, SQL Server). Not every user of one of those?platforms is also an XQuery user, in part because?integrated support for XQuery is more recent than languages such as C# and Java. But?the native XML products and XML-enabled products provide some?indication of the potential size of the community. You can use an XQuery extension for Firefox and Internet Explorer to query files but web developers are only one slice of the community. What is most likely to drive XQuery growth is increasing the number of application frameworks and visual developer suites, particularly dual mode tools,?that generate XQuery. That's what dramatically increased?adoption of the SQL client-server model - cheap integrated developer environments with SQL support. When you see?heavy XQuery adoption by the?PaaS vendors, you'll know those trend lines will be start looking different. From rasmussen.bryan at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 21:58:28 2009 From: rasmussen.bryan at gmail.com (bryan rasmussen) Date: Wed Aug 26 11:49:39 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: <309E3D7D-E546-4022-B166-BDB956B0AB25@mac.com> References: <92F57853-837A-4860-9F78-A337E039D74C@mac.com> <9BCC2AEA2D8704498C240217CA020E3A370FFC@SERVER1.smallbusiness.local> <309E3D7D-E546-4022-B166-BDB956B0AB25@mac.com> Message-ID: <3bb44c6e0908261158m7ac4f6d8jcb54fb5db20756d@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 8:17 PM, Daniela Florescu wrote: > I got several private answers to this question, all with the same comment: > in all cases people looked for XQuery developers and cannot find any. > > Unfortunately XQuery will remain a niche language if this situation > persists. I think one could argue that statement is exactly backwards in that if XQuery remains a niche language then that situation will persist. Best regards, Bryan Rasmussen From dflorescu at mac.com Wed Aug 26 13:01:17 2009 From: dflorescu at mac.com (Daniela Florescu) Date: Wed Aug 26 11:52:31 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: <3bb44c6e0908261158m7ac4f6d8jcb54fb5db20756d@mail.gmail.com> References: <92F57853-837A-4860-9F78-A337E039D74C@mac.com> <9BCC2AEA2D8704498C240217CA020E3A370FFC@SERVER1.smallbusiness.local> <309E3D7D-E546-4022-B166-BDB956B0AB25@mac.com> <3bb44c6e0908261158m7ac4f6d8jcb54fb5db20756d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: >> > > I think one could argue that statement is exactly backwards in that if > XQuery remains a niche language then that situation will persist. Let's rephrase my question: how does XQuery exist this vicious circle ??? Best Dana From dflorescu at mac.com Wed Aug 26 13:02:57 2009 From: dflorescu at mac.com (Daniela Florescu) Date: Wed Aug 26 11:54:07 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: <36618983-b9cf-4458-9731-2339205efab7@default> References: <92F57853-837A-4860-9F78-A337E039D74C@mac.com> <36618983-b9cf-4458-9731-2339205efab7@default> Message-ID: Michael, yes, the numbers you cite are probably correct. But I would argue that one line of XQuery needs to be implemented with 100 lines of Java, and will generate in the long term 100 times more bugs, let alone require performance improvements. E.g. of course you needed more C developers then SQL to implement the same business data management problem. Volume alone doesn't say much.... but your point is take, we all understand this ! Dana P.S. Also, Xquery is not general purpose programming language like Java is either (-- I wouldn't write Photoshop or something equivalent in XQuery for example... :-) On Aug 26, 2009, at 11:37 AM, Michael Reiche wrote: > Google shows 278M hits for java and 1.14M hits for xquery. > > dice.com shows five job listings with "Xquery" in the title, a total > of 82 jobs with xquery in the description > (curiously, all but one of the five are in Ohio - a veritable Xquery > hotbed? more likely the same job posted my multiple agencies). So > if you're an out-of-work xquery developer, you don't have a lot of > options. > > for comparision, dice shows show 2633 jobs with "java" in the title > and 8945 jobs with "java" in the description). > > so this places the Java:Xquery ratio somewhere around 100:1, 250:1, > 500:1 > > Call it 250:1. Googling around I find a figure of 6.5M java > developers, at 250:1, that would imply 26,000 xquery developers > (sounds way high). If I Google to find resumes that contain Xquery > - I get 901. > > Considering that JavaOne draws 15,000 attendees, XqueryOne would > draw 60. > > - Mike > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Daniela Florescu [mailto:dflorescu@mac.com] > Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 10:39 AM > To: Marcus Clemens > Cc: talk@x-query.com > Subject: Re: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community > > Thanks. > > Here comes my second question to which I'd appreciate an insight: > > 2) Is the demand for XQuery developers larger then the offer ? > > Thanks > Dana > > > > > > On Aug 26, 2009, at 10:14 AM, Marcus Clemens wrote: > >> I am a recruitment consultant in the UK and I have only come across >> about 20 good ones here . if anyone wants to send their CV please do >> >> Kind regards >> >> Marcus Clemens >> Director & Senior Consultant >> Mercator IT Ltd >> >> Tel: 01892 611161 >> Fax: 01892 660185 >> Email: marcus@mercatorit.com >> Cooks Corner Business Park, The Old Saw Mill, London Road, >> Crowborough >> TN6 1TQ >> >> Registered in England no: 05755983 >> Registered office: 117 Dartford Road, Dartford, Kent DA1 3EN >> >> This email may contain privileged/confidential information and is for >> the intended addressee only. If you have received this message in >> error then you must not use, retain, disseminate or otherwise deal >> with it. Please notify the sender by return email and destroy. The >> views of the author may not necessarily constitute the views of >> Mercator IT Solutions Ltd. Nothing in this email shall bind Mercator >> IT Solutions Ltd in any contract or obligation. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: talk-bounces@x-query.com [mailto:talk-bounces@x-query.com] On >> Behalf Of Daniela Florescu >> Sent: 26 August 2009 18:07 >> To: talk@x-query.com >> Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community >> >> Dear all, >> >> almost every time when I give a talk about XQuery I get confronted >> with the same question, to which I do not know the answer. >> >> The question from the audience always is: " How many XQuery >> developers >> are there? " >> -- with the underlying assumption that, indeed, there are not that >> many. >> >> Please help me with this. I honestly don't know the answer. >> >> How do you appreciate the size of the XQuery developers community ? >> (thousands, >> tens of thousands, millions !!??) >> >> Thanks in advance, best regards >> Dana >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> talk@x-query.com >> http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk > > _______________________________________________ > talk@x-query.com > http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk > > _______________________________________________ > talk@x-query.com > http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk From kennorth at sbcglobal.net Wed Aug 26 13:11:03 2009 From: kennorth at sbcglobal.net (Ken North) Date: Wed Aug 26 12:01:55 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: <36618983-b9cf-4458-9731-2339205efab7@default> References: <92F57853-837A-4860-9F78-A337E039D74C@mac.com> <9BCC2AEA2D8704498C240217CA020E3A370FFC@SERVER1.smallbusiness.local F35869FE-756B-4783-9024-E78351629A73@mac.com> <36618983-b9cf-4458-9731-2339205efab7@default> Message-ID: <361195.90701.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> >>?JavaOne draws 15,000 attendees,? XqueryOne would draw 60. The linked data community is probably smaller than the XQuery community. Last year's?LinkedData Planet conference drew people interested in semantic technology (ontology, taxonomies,?RDF) and database integration.??We had somewhere between 250-300 people in NYC. From dlee at calldei.com Wed Aug 26 16:22:25 2009 From: dlee at calldei.com (David A. Lee) Date: Wed Aug 26 12:13:18 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: References: <92F57853-837A-4860-9F78-A337E039D74C@mac.com> <9BCC2AEA2D8704498C240217CA020E3A370FFC@SERVER1.smallbusiness.local> <309E3D7D-E546-4022-B166-BDB956B0AB25@mac.com> <3bb44c6e0908261158m7ac4f6d8jcb54fb5db20756d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A958B71.2050901@calldei.com> > Let's rephrase my question: how does XQuery exist this vicious circle ??? > > Use it ? At my Day Job, I started playing with XQuery 3+ years ago after attending a session at XML2005. I started using it as a prototype language to get some work done that needed to get done and I wanted to see if I could use XQuery to do it easier then Java. I fully intended to to rewrite it in "pure java" once the prototype phase was done but found that I didnt need to. The XQuery part worked just great, so I put it into the release product. I then discovered the next layer up was annoying. I had to write a bunch of "framework" code in Java just to arrange to *call* xquery ( you know, find the input files, get the xquery files, setup the parameters, call it, serialize the results etc). The framework/glue code was almost as bad as having to write the XQuery stuff in java in the first place (say using DOM). Every call to XQuery took about 50-100 lines of java to setup and tear down properly. Its a hard sell when you have to write 100 lines of "wrapper" code to call 50 lines of XQuery ... of course I didnt tell anyone :) I was enjoying XQuery so much I just pushed forward. Then I experimented with ways of efficiently scripting this wrapper code so I didnt have to rewrite what was essentially boilerplate Java just to use XQuery ... That itself started as a prototype to get the Next job done ... A scripting language that could call XQuery without the investment of writing a bunch of wrapper code so I could "just do XQuery efficiently" and not spend 50% of my time coding around it. Hence was born xmlsh. Which I originally intended just to use as a prototype tool itself ... but turned out it ran as well or better then my hand-coded java so I kept *that* ... Now 3 years later I've got XQuery firmly embedded in the production data processing of many pieces of the enterprise. But my *new* problem is training other engineers with XQuery so they can maintain this codebase and add to it. Its an uphill battle but slowly being won. I've hit much resistance from people, such as Ruby programmers who have said "I'd have to go to a week training class just to understand that" to Java programmers who say "I'd rather just do it in pure Java because everyone knows these high level languages aren't powerful enough" to just plain old "I barely learned DOM programming and now you want me to learn something else ? Ug!" But back to the question. Just use it and get it into production systems. Then other people will have to learn it to maintain it. If you can kick them into it and they don't just rewrite it all in their own language of choice because they don't want to learn something new ... I *have* been successful at turning some minds though .. after showing hard-core Java programmers what you can do in a few lines of XQuery and then showing them the equivalent Java code they some start to get it. But the learning curve is tough for many. I don't think I've been successful at talking anyone into using xquery if they had to start from scratch, only if they were maintaining existing code that required it. Some have said they'd "like to" but don't actually do it. Its easy to fall back on something you know. -- David A. Lee dlee@calldei.com http://www.calldei.com http://www.xmlsh.org 812-482-5224 From vyacheslav.sedov at gmail.com Thu Aug 27 00:45:25 2009 From: vyacheslav.sedov at gmail.com (Vyacheslav Sedov) Date: Wed Aug 26 12:35:28 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: References: <92F57853-837A-4860-9F78-A337E039D74C@mac.com> <36618983-b9cf-4458-9731-2339205efab7@default> Message-ID: <7ab7cbac0908261245q75e4469ldb05f947f7b35958@mail.gmail.com> > P.S. Also, Xquery is not general purpose programming language like Java is > either > (-- I wouldn't write Photoshop or something equivalent in XQuery for > example... :-) yep - but you can write whole internet/intranet application with eXist or ML (ML lack XSLT possibilities) in XQuery-centric mode without Java at all (only to run eXist&Saxon) it is much better then Java or PHP-centric application i am eXist developer, spend about 3 years as ML developer in russian wiley office. Still can`t find XSLT/XQuery related job here (from january) - ML 50k$ license cost made ML very rare guest in russian companies. So i choose to learn eXist-db instead ML and at way to register myself as entrepreneur - at least i can save extra 50k$ for my customers. Even got one - Ministry of Housing in Moscow Region and have finished first eXist-centric project for government reporting system (Putin and Medvedev look at digits counted by my program - wow) - by the way all numbers in reports validated by Schematron rules - probably single government report validated by Schematron yet. Listen: We have 10 apples - 8 to each of us - why 8 when 5? - i dunno but i am already eat my 8. At now i am trying to implement first (as i know) XRX-based CMS (but i prefer term KMS - knowledge management system), also i am thinking about eXist as base for distributed search system - probably (SKOS, OWL, RDF)-based, and look like this KMS & distributed search system can be merged into one project. With best wishes, Slav http://xquery.tel ;) p.s. Problem was noted by Alan G. Carter and Colston Sanger in 1997 in Programmer's Stone book (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programmer's_Stone) and still not solved - conflict between "mappers" and "packers". On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 11:02 PM, Daniela Florescu wrote: > Michael, > > yes, the numbers you cite are probably correct. > > But I would argue that one line of XQuery needs to be implemented > with 100 lines of Java, and will generate in the long term 100 times more > bugs, > let alone require performance improvements. > > E.g. of course you needed more C developers then SQL to implement the same > business data management problem. > > Volume alone doesn't say much.... but your point is take, we all understand > this ! > > Dana > > > P.S. Also, Xquery is not general purpose programming language like Java is > either > (-- I wouldn't write Photoshop or something equivalent in XQuery for > example... :-) > > > > > > On Aug 26, 2009, at 11:37 AM, Michael Reiche wrote: > >> Google shows 278M hits for java and 1.14M hits for xquery. >> >> dice.com shows five job listings with "Xquery" in the title, a total of 82 >> jobs with xquery in the description >> (curiously, all but one of the five are in Ohio - a veritable Xquery >> hotbed? more likely the same job posted my multiple agencies). ?So if you're >> an out-of-work xquery developer, you don't have a lot of options. >> >> for comparision, dice shows show 2633 jobs with "java" in the title and >> 8945 jobs with "java" in the description). >> >> so this places the Java:Xquery ratio somewhere around 100:1, 250:1, 500:1 >> >> Call it 250:1. ? ?Googling around I find a figure of 6.5M java developers, >> at 250:1, that would imply 26,000 xquery developers (sounds way high). ?If I >> Google to find resumes that contain Xquery - I get 901. >> >> Considering that JavaOne draws 15,000 attendees, ? XqueryOne would draw >> 60. >> >> - Mike >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Daniela Florescu [mailto:dflorescu@mac.com] >> Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 10:39 AM >> To: Marcus Clemens >> Cc: talk@x-query.com >> Subject: Re: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community >> >> Thanks. >> >> Here comes my second question to which I'd appreciate an insight: >> >> 2) Is the demand for XQuery developers larger then the offer ? >> >> Thanks >> Dana >> >> >> >> >> >> On Aug 26, 2009, at 10:14 AM, Marcus Clemens wrote: >> >>> I am a recruitment consultant in the UK and I have only come across >>> about 20 good ones here . if anyone wants to send their CV please do >>> >>> Kind regards >>> >>> Marcus Clemens >>> Director & Senior Consultant >>> Mercator IT Ltd >>> >>> Tel: 01892 611161 >>> Fax: 01892 660185 >>> Email: marcus@mercatorit.com >>> Cooks Corner Business Park, The Old Saw Mill, London Road, Crowborough >>> TN6 1TQ >>> >>> Registered in England no: 05755983 >>> Registered office: 117 Dartford Road, Dartford, Kent DA1 3EN >>> >>> This email may contain privileged/confidential information and is for >>> the intended addressee only. ?If you have received this message in >>> error then you must not use, retain, disseminate or otherwise deal >>> with it. ?Please notify the sender by return email and destroy. ?The >>> views of the author may not necessarily constitute the views of >>> Mercator IT Solutions Ltd. ?Nothing in this email shall bind Mercator >>> IT Solutions Ltd in any contract or obligation. >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: talk-bounces@x-query.com [mailto:talk-bounces@x-query.com] On >>> Behalf Of Daniela Florescu >>> Sent: 26 August 2009 18:07 >>> To: talk@x-query.com >>> Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community >>> >>> Dear all, >>> >>> almost every time when I give a talk about XQuery I get confronted >>> with the same ?question, to which I do not know the answer. >>> >>> The question from the audience always is: " How many XQuery developers >>> are there? " >>> -- with the underlying assumption that, indeed, there are not thatmany. >>> >>> Please help me with this. I honestly don't know the answer. >>> >>> How do you appreciate the size of the XQuery developers community ? >>> (thousands, >>> tens of thousands, millions !!??) >>> >>> Thanks in advance, best regards >>> Dana >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> talk@x-query.com >>> http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk >> >> _______________________________________________ >> talk@x-query.com >> http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk >> >> _______________________________________________ >> talk@x-query.com >> http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk > > _______________________________________________ > talk@x-query.com > http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk > From kent at tegels.org Wed Aug 26 15:50:57 2009 From: kent at tegels.org (Kent Tegels) Date: Wed Aug 26 12:40:49 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: <7ab7cbac0908261245q75e4469ldb05f947f7b35958@mail.gmail.com> References: <92F57853-837A-4860-9F78-A337E039D74C@mac.com> <36618983-b9cf-4458-9731-2339205efab7@default> <7ab7cbac0908261245q75e4469ldb05f947f7b35958@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <357badb20908261250h48f2401cy206699335f4601a2@mail.gmail.com> This might give us some insight. I've asked the folks following me a few mailing lists and via twitter to take this survey. I will publish here when I get them. If we can get a proportion, we can make a guess at the them with a given confidence. (Yeah, I am a stats guy). http://FreeOnlineSurveys.com/rendersurvey.asp?sid=bf158bphisnwque634954 kt From rob at koberg.com Wed Aug 26 16:02:20 2009 From: rob at koberg.com (Robert Koberg) Date: Wed Aug 26 14:48:28 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: <309E3D7D-E546-4022-B166-BDB956B0AB25@mac.com> References: <92F57853-837A-4860-9F78-A337E039D74C@mac.com> <9BCC2AEA2D8704498C240217CA020E3A370FFC@SERVER1.smallbusiness.local> <309E3D7D-E546-4022-B166-BDB956B0AB25@mac.com> Message-ID: <9B5CF0B7-610A-4734-B901-16E815372954@koberg.com> On Aug 26, 2009, at 11:17 AM, Daniela Florescu wrote: > I got several private answers to this question, all with the same > comment: > in all cases people looked for XQuery developers and cannot find any. > > Unfortunately XQuery will remain a niche language if this situation > persists. > > How did other languages/communities solve this kind of growing pain ? > > Any suggestions ? lots of money From vyacheslav.sedov at gmail.com Thu Aug 27 04:06:29 2009 From: vyacheslav.sedov at gmail.com (Vyacheslav Sedov) Date: Wed Aug 26 15:50:46 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: <9B5CF0B7-610A-4734-B901-16E815372954@koberg.com> References: <92F57853-837A-4860-9F78-A337E039D74C@mac.com> <9BCC2AEA2D8704498C240217CA020E3A370FFC@SERVER1.smallbusiness.local> <309E3D7D-E546-4022-B166-BDB956B0AB25@mac.com> <9B5CF0B7-610A-4734-B901-16E815372954@koberg.com> Message-ID: <7ab7cbac0908261606x6988df6an908e322e84466906@mail.gmail.com> > lots of money nope - even more - less money is better to IT projects, i did project for less then $2000 (from zero, first project, learning curve and so on) in same time while 12 years old company demand from my customer about $100 000 for same task (12 years - and they still did not have base code for reuse?), very funny - and i seen same effect everywhere - more money - more peoples - more communications - more wars - more wasted time - it even not my words - Jules Gabriel Verne "Around the World in Eighty Days" (i guess this book should read every project manager) - About main hero "He lived alone as he knew that in this world there must be friction, and since friction slows things down, he never rubbed himself against anybody." it dated 1872 (: exact 100 years before my birth :) i guess money-lovers should find other sector then IT - gold mine or selling Lunar surface On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 2:02 AM, Robert Koberg wrote: > > On Aug 26, 2009, at 11:17 AM, Daniela Florescu wrote: > >> I got several private answers to this question, all with the same comment: >> in all cases people looked for XQuery developers and cannot find any. >> >> Unfortunately XQuery will remain a niche language if this situation >> persists. >> >> How did other languages/communities solve this kind of growing pain ? >> >> Any suggestions ? > > > lots of money > _______________________________________________ > talk@x-query.com > http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk > From dflorescu at mac.com Wed Aug 26 17:39:05 2009 From: dflorescu at mac.com (Daniela Florescu) Date: Wed Aug 26 16:22:27 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: <9B5CF0B7-610A-4734-B901-16E815372954@koberg.com> References: <92F57853-837A-4860-9F78-A337E039D74C@mac.com> <9BCC2AEA2D8704498C240217CA020E3A370FFC@SERVER1.smallbusiness.local> <309E3D7D-E546-4022-B166-BDB956B0AB25@mac.com> <9B5CF0B7-610A-4734-B901-16E815372954@koberg.com> Message-ID: <3CB1C0CB-B2BA-4187-850E-49757BFD3977@mac.com> >> >> >> How did other languages/communities solve this kind of growing pain ? >> >> Any suggestions ? > > > lots of money Hmm, Sure. We'd love that, thanks ! :-) But how ? ( This was the subtitle of my original question.....:-) Without a large XQuery developer community, none of the existing Xquery engines/databases will make serious money with it (and when I saw none, I really believe it...). [[ The native XML database vendors can disagree with me as much as they want, only they know their financials, and how much money they spend for each sale they make -- at least for the moment-- and this will probably continue as long as XQuery is not a mainstream data processing language..... And if nobody is making any money, at the end of the game, there is a clear indication that XQuery doesn't provide enough value, alas -- value to the customer has to translate somehow to value to the vendors. ]] I still believe this is **not** true, and XQuery has tremendous potential for adding value to customers, but the proof isn't there yet, and the path isn't clear either. There has to be a larger XQuery pool of expertise if we want to (a) provide large scale value to customers in terms of data processing and as a consequence (b) provide value for the vendors. Best regards Dana From mike at saxonica.com Thu Aug 27 01:45:47 2009 From: mike at saxonica.com (Michael Kay) Date: Wed Aug 26 16:29:08 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: <92F57853-837A-4860-9F78-A337E039D74C@mac.com> References: <92F57853-837A-4860-9F78-A337E039D74C@mac.com> Message-ID: > > Please help me with this. I honestly don't know the answer. > > How do you appreciate the size of the XQuery developers community ? > (thousands, > tens of thousands, millions !!??) > Over the lifetime of my XSLT reference book (nearly ten years), I think it has sold about 50,000 copies. If you assume one in 10 XSLT developers has bought a copy, that's half a million developers. Of course they aren't all writing XSLT all the time, some may have done one 4-week project and then moved on. And some people have bought more than one edition. But that's probably a better measure than downloads, because it's impossible to estimate repeat figures for downloads. A more conservative estimate might be 100K active developers. If we were serious about it we might define "active developers" as the number of people using XSLT in any one month. I would tend to share Ken's view that the number of XQuery users is probably about 20% of the XSLT figure. That's from a number of indicators: availability of books, traffic on mailing lists, traffic on Twitter, interest shown at conferences, etc. So that would give a figure of 20,000 active developers. But it's very hard to tell. I don't even know how many developers there are in my largest XQuery customer (an investment bank). I would hazard 100, but I've no idea. These people are not typically very visible on the internet - programmers working for a bank tend not to be very outward-facing, with a few exceptions. And they develop their skills internally within the organisation. In the Google trends figures, I'm always struck how different the geographic spread is from anything that IT market size gives you. The market for Saxon is probably fairly similar to much other similar Western software: 40% North America, 50% Europe, 10% rest of world (that's direct sales only). Google's figures always show a much higher figure for Asian countries, and it would be nice to have an explanation. (There are probably Asian software products that we never get to hear about: the flow of information from West to East is much better than in the reverse direction.) The high figures for Czech Republic are also intriguing, given the size of the country. It would be nice to have SourceForge download figures broken down by geography, but I don't think they are published. Regards, Michael Kay http://www.saxonica.com/ http://twitter.com/michaelhkay From paul.agbetile at gmail.com Thu Aug 27 02:54:03 2009 From: paul.agbetile at gmail.com (paul agbetile) Date: Wed Aug 26 17:33:31 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: References: <92F57853-837A-4860-9F78-A337E039D74C@mac.com> Message-ID: <7cd1d1ae0908261754t1299386dj132b105fc5ef81d0@mail.gmail.com> I am not sure google trends at present is a good indicator of XQuery's uptake as searches across all major programming languages has slumped over the past 12 - 18 months. Personally I am more inclined to link this to the current economic downturn. Perhaps as the economy improves and purse string are loosen developers might take more of a chance in suggesting alternatives to their heads of IT. I have also noticed quite a few of my IT friends in varied companies seem to have heard of XQuery even those in 2nd line support who don't develop but have heard it thrown around the office but as Michael mentioned they tend to develop their skills internally. I can understand some of these fears /doubts must be realised more by those who have been at the epicentre of XQuery specifications, development of XQuery engines/databases (both commercial and non-commercial) as this has been and continues to be a sizeable chunk of their lives. I do think "the solution" is king however. If an established company knows of a task perfectly suited to XQuery but sells a solution that throws COBOL under the bonnet but will assume risk (which the client rarely wants) then they are still a more resonant voice than the in-house developer with a quirky taste for new things. However I think it is still early days for XQuery, I now see common use of XPath in many places I work and I think the word is just slowly starting to filter through about XQuery. In the meantime I suspect a silent many are beavering away at their tasks with solutions based on fine efforts. Regards, Paul On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 12:45 AM, Michael Kay wrote: > > > > Please help me with this. I honestly don't know the answer. > > > > How do you appreciate the size of the XQuery developers community ? > > (thousands, > > tens of thousands, millions !!??) > > > > Over the lifetime of my XSLT reference book (nearly ten years), I think it > has sold about 50,000 copies. If you assume one in 10 XSLT developers has > bought a copy, that's half a million developers. Of course they aren't all > writing XSLT all the time, some may have done one 4-week project and then > moved on. And some people have bought more than one edition. But that's > probably a better measure than downloads, because it's impossible to > estimate repeat figures for downloads. A more conservative estimate might > be > 100K active developers. If we were serious about it we might define "active > developers" as the number of people using XSLT in any one month. > > I would tend to share Ken's view that the number of XQuery users is > probably > about 20% of the XSLT figure. That's from a number of indicators: > availability of books, traffic on mailing lists, traffic on Twitter, > interest shown at conferences, etc. So that would give a figure of 20,000 > active developers. > > But it's very hard to tell. I don't even know how many developers there are > in my largest XQuery customer (an investment bank). I would hazard 100, but > I've no idea. These people are not typically very visible on the internet - > programmers working for a bank tend not to be very outward-facing, with a > few exceptions. And they develop their skills internally within the > organisation. > > In the Google trends figures, I'm always struck how different the > geographic > spread is from anything that IT market size gives you. The market for Saxon > is probably fairly similar to much other similar Western software: 40% > North > America, 50% Europe, 10% rest of world (that's direct sales only). Google's > figures always show a much higher figure for Asian countries, and it would > be nice to have an explanation. (There are probably Asian software products > that we never get to hear about: the flow of information from West to East > is much better than in the reverse direction.) The high figures for Czech > Republic are also intriguing, given the size of the country. It would be > nice to have SourceForge download figures broken down by geography, but I > don't think they are published. > > Regards, > > Michael Kay > http://www.saxonica.com/ > http://twitter.com/michaelhkay > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > talk@x-query.com > http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://x-query.com/pipermail/talk/attachments/20090827/9ed8383f/attachment.htm From liam at w3.org Thu Aug 27 00:58:06 2009 From: liam at w3.org (Liam Quin) Date: Wed Aug 26 20:27:45 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: <92F57853-837A-4860-9F78-A337E039D74C@mac.com> References: <92F57853-837A-4860-9F78-A337E039D74C@mac.com> Message-ID: <20090827035806.GB13347@w3.org> On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 10:07:02AM -0700, Daniela Florescu wrote: > The question from the audience always is: " How many XQuery developers > are there? " My answer would be that there are some 50 implementations -- some of the ones on the XQuery page are dead, but I keep hearing about new ones, and the number seems to be growing, not shrinking. SQL Server, IBM DB2 and Oracle all include XQuery support; there are products like MarkLogic, Qizx, Saxon-SA, and others at the XQuery level; then you work up to business logic, SOA and customer relationship management, document management, and so forth, products that use XQuery indirectly. The number must be at least in the tens of thousands of people writing XQuery code at least occasionally. I thnk we need to see standardised (or at least widespread) frameworks before it will get much larger - - call XQuery from Java in one line (cf. what JQuery did for AJAX) - In a Web server, pass CGI/form parameters and query URIs to XQuery in a standrd way - some widespread modules, e.g. for wrapping system functions to return stff like the height and width of an image, or a list of files in a directory I hope that exquery will help with this. It would not surprise me if there were well over a million people writing XSLT stylesheets on a frequent basis (or at least working with them, say, once a month or more, at the source level, as opposed to just running them). Actually it wouldn't surprise me if there were ten million, but I don't have any evidence to suggest the number is that high. It's hard to measure, since Web browsers, Mac OS X, Solaris, Linux, Microsoft Windows and other operating enviroments all ship with XSLT engines as standard. But XSLT has been out there for a decade, so it's got a bit of a head start. Liam -- Liam Quin, W3C XML Activity Lead, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ http://www.holoweb.net/~liam/ * http://www.fromoldbooks.org/ From rob at koberg.com Wed Aug 26 23:32:23 2009 From: rob at koberg.com (Robert Koberg) Date: Wed Aug 26 21:59:10 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: <3CB1C0CB-B2BA-4187-850E-49757BFD3977@mac.com> References: <92F57853-837A-4860-9F78-A337E039D74C@mac.com> <9BCC2AEA2D8704498C240217CA020E3A370FFC@SERVER1.smallbusiness.local> <309E3D7D-E546-4022-B166-BDB956B0AB25@mac.com> <9B5CF0B7-610A-4734-B901-16E815372954@koberg.com> <3CB1C0CB-B2BA-4187-850E-49757BFD3977@mac.com> Message-ID: On Aug 26, 2009, at 4:39 PM, Daniela Florescu wrote: >>> >>> >>> How did other languages/communities solve this kind of growing >>> pain ? >>> >>> Any suggestions ? >> >> >> lots of money > > Hmm, Sure. We'd love that, thanks ! :-) > > But how ? > ( This was the subtitle of my original question.....:-) Standardization of the server side containers to allow the majority of xqueries to run. For example, don't make the developer rewrite an xquery to get a simple request parameter. (perhaps better, don't use XQuery for webapps ) Push XQuery for what it is good at: querying XML. Integrate XSL natively in the XML DB and use that for mixed-content heavy transformations. (In the past I have probably beaten this issue into the ground?) best, -Rob From mike at saxonica.com Thu Aug 27 10:04:12 2009 From: mike at saxonica.com (Michael Kay) Date: Thu Aug 27 00:25:29 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: <7cd1d1ae0908261754t1299386dj132b105fc5ef81d0@mail.gmail.com> References: <92F57853-837A-4860-9F78-A337E039D74C@mac.com> <7cd1d1ae0908261754t1299386dj132b105fc5ef81d0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I am not sure google trends at present is a good indicator of XQuery's uptake as searches across all major programming languages has slumped over the past 12 - 18 months. Personally I am more inclined to link this to the current economic downturn. Perhaps as the economy improves and purse string are loosen developers might take more of a chance in suggesting alternatives to their heads of IT. I think it's very hard to draw conclusions from Google trends on anything. Look at "terrorism" or "crime", for example. I suspect that one effect is that as the number of web pages on a topic increases, people have to use more selective search terms to get useful results. In the early days of XML, "XML" was a useful search term; it isn't any more. Regards, Michael Kay http://www.saxonica.com/ http://twitter.com/michaelhkay -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://x-query.com/pipermail/talk/attachments/20090827/bc725943/attachment.htm From rasmussen.bryan at gmail.com Thu Aug 27 11:45:40 2009 From: rasmussen.bryan at gmail.com (bryan rasmussen) Date: Thu Aug 27 01:05:10 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: <3CB1C0CB-B2BA-4187-850E-49757BFD3977@mac.com> References: <92F57853-837A-4860-9F78-A337E039D74C@mac.com> <9BCC2AEA2D8704498C240217CA020E3A370FFC@SERVER1.smallbusiness.local> <309E3D7D-E546-4022-B166-BDB956B0AB25@mac.com> <9B5CF0B7-610A-4734-B901-16E815372954@koberg.com> <3CB1C0CB-B2BA-4187-850E-49757BFD3977@mac.com> Message-ID: <3bb44c6e0908270145x36d7c94etbf5d5e9ec89d8074@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 1:39 AM, Daniela Florescu wrote: >>> >>> >>> How did other languages/communities solve this kind of growing pain ? >>> >>> Any suggestions ? >> >> Write applications in XQuery and open source them, the problem there is that there isn't enough standardization of the server side XQuery engines for most of what you want to do (yet) so that in effect you are to a certain extent growing an implementation not just the language if you do this. As an example, one reason PHP,Python grow is that there are significant application written in them that people want to integrate into their suites of applications and make things work together. In doing this integration you need to learn some configuration about the application, but maybe you also have to learn some of the language to make the application work with your stuff. sooner or later you know enough of the language and you might choose to use it for something because you realize that the task and the language are a good fit. This is different than just making things in XQuery and showing I made X in very little time, because people will often just say I can make X in my language. They have to have the application, and the application has to be significant enough that they are not going to want to remake it in their language of choice. Best Regards, Bryan Rasmussen From andrew.j.welch at gmail.com Thu Aug 27 12:41:14 2009 From: andrew.j.welch at gmail.com (Andrew Welch) Date: Thu Aug 27 02:57:14 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: References: <92F57853-837A-4860-9F78-A337E039D74C@mac.com> <9BCC2AEA2D8704498C240217CA020E3A370FFC@SERVER1.smallbusiness.local> <309E3D7D-E546-4022-B166-BDB956B0AB25@mac.com> <9B5CF0B7-610A-4734-B901-16E815372954@koberg.com> <3CB1C0CB-B2BA-4187-850E-49757BFD3977@mac.com> Message-ID: <74a894af0908270341m7777a7f3pf8d4d3a403c064ea@mail.gmail.com> >>> lots of money >> >> Hmm, Sure. We'd love that, thanks ! :-) >> >> But how ? >> ( This was the subtitle of my original question.....:-) > > > Standardization of the server side containers to allow the majority of > xqueries to run. For example, don't make the developer rewrite an xquery to > get a simple request parameter. (perhaps better, don't use XQuery for > webapps ) > > Push XQuery for what it is good at: querying XML. Integrate XSL natively in > the XML DB and use that for mixed-content heavy transformations. > > ?(In the past I have probably beaten this issue into the ground?) (Yep :) but hopefully it's coming ) The project I work on at the moment takes a load of XML, parses it into pojos, stores them in a relational db, gets them from the db, then writes out XML etc... It would be so much better if an XML database was used, however because the project architect and majority of the team have no experience with XQuery and XML databases, that's the only solution they know. They argue over things like how easy it is to "traverse the schema", yet don't seem to realise/understand if the information was still in XML how much simpler querying the data would be. -- Andrew Welch http://andrewjwelch.com Kernow: http://kernowforsaxon.sf.net/ From liam at w3.org Thu Aug 27 11:31:06 2009 From: liam at w3.org (Liam Quin) Date: Thu Aug 27 07:28:29 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: References: <92F57853-837A-4860-9F78-A337E039D74C@mac.com> Message-ID: <20090827143106.GD13347@w3.org> On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 01:27:31PM -0400, David Sewell wrote: > So for a first-order approximation, let's compare the ratio of emails > about XQuery to emails about Perl using the search at markmail.org: > > XQuery = 45230 > Perl = 1342154 You should probably limit it, e.g. to messages this year... Perl was first released in 1989 or so! liam -- Liam Quin, W3C XML Activity Lead, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ http://www.holoweb.net/~liam/ * http://www.fromoldbooks.org/ From lists at fgeorges.org Thu Aug 27 15:57:08 2009 From: lists at fgeorges.org (Florent Georges) Date: Thu Aug 27 07:54:00 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: <20090827035806.GB13347@w3.org> Message-ID: <625455.40766.qm@web23004.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Liam Quin wrote: Hi, > I thnk we need to see standardised (or at least widespread) > frameworks before it will get much larger - > - call XQuery from Java in one line (cf. what JQuery did for > AJAX) > - In a Web server, pass CGI/form parameters and query URIs to > XQuery in a standrd way > - some widespread modules, e.g. for wrapping system functions > to return stff like the height and width of an image, or a > list of files in a directory As well as a standard way to distribute standard libraries written in plain XQuery, a standard way to package them ;-) Having a lot of good open-source libraries for common tasks (and easily installable across several processors) is a big factor of adoption for a language, IMHO. Regards, -- Florent Georges http://www.fgeorges.org/ From kennorth at sbcglobal.net Thu Aug 27 10:23:13 2009 From: kennorth at sbcglobal.net (Ken North) Date: Thu Aug 27 09:17:44 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: <7cd1d1ae0908261754t1299386dj132b105fc5ef81d0@mail.gmail.com> References: <92F57853-837A-4860-9F78-A337E039D74C@mac.com> <7cd1d1ae0908261754t1299386dj132b105fc5ef81d0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <197339.89856.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> >> I?am not sure?google trends at present is a good indicator of XQuery's uptake as searches across all major programming languages has slumped over the past 12 - 18?months. Personally I am more inclined to link this to the current economic downturn... Hmm... Both?LINQ and cloud computing show a steady increase in the number of searches from 2007-2009. For LINQ searches, English ranked as?the seventh?language. http://www.google.com/trends?q=LINQ%2C+%22cloud+computing%22&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0 SaaS is up slightly in 2007-2009 versus 2004-2005. XQuery versus Grails and Adobe AIR http://www.google.com/trends?q=XQuery%2C+%22Adobe+AIR%22%2C+Grails&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=1 The number of searches for LINQ is an upward trend, along with some?framework and platform-related searches. From paul.agbetile at gmail.com Thu Aug 27 19:50:21 2009 From: paul.agbetile at gmail.com (Paul Agbetile) Date: Thu Aug 27 10:40:22 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: <197339.89856.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <92F57853-837A-4860-9F78-A337E039D74C@mac.com> <7cd1d1ae0908261754t1299386dj132b105fc5ef81d0@mail.gmail.com> <197339.89856.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <53D5CE73-484C-4C49-87EE-9A287A908E7F@gmail.com> I'm guilty of a generalisation. I'd assumed an ecosystem of languages under which I felt XQuery would naturally find a home to work in conjuction with. i.e Java, xpath, C#. These have seen a slump. However I must admit some of these like Perl had begun a slump long before the downturn. I do find LINQ a curious case. I can only assume Microsoft's tentacles with its developer SDK and the attraction to gold partners are so far reaching it has provided it free publicity which is why it has bucked the trend. With Cloud computing also being one of those things that appears in every IT magazine that lands on an IT managers desk (thanks in part large to advertising budgets by virtualisation companies) I'm sure this lead to google hits. I also know a few people who probably think they should know what it is in case ever discussed in a meeting. I wouldn't be surprised if during a downturn companies still spent on applications that relate more to multimedia and advertising such as Adobe AIR than core ETL type development. On 27 Aug 2009, at 17:23, Ken North wrote: >>> I am not sure google trends at present is a good indicator of >>> XQuery's uptake as searches across all major programming languages >>> has slumped over the past 12 - 18 months. Personally I am more >>> inclined to link this to the current economic downturn... > > Hmm... > > Both LINQ and cloud computing show a steady increase in the number > of searches from 2007-2009. For LINQ searches, English ranked as the > seventh language. > http://www.google.com/trends?q=LINQ%2C+%22cloud+computing%22&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0 > > SaaS is up slightly in 2007-2009 versus 2004-2005. > > XQuery versus Grails and Adobe AIR > http://www.google.com/trends?q=XQuery%2C+%22Adobe+AIR%22%2C+Grails&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=1 > > The number of searches for LINQ is an upward trend, along with some > framework and platform-related searches. > > _______________________________________________ > talk@x-query.com > http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk From dflorescu at mac.com Thu Aug 27 12:22:19 2009 From: dflorescu at mac.com (Daniela Florescu) Date: Thu Aug 27 11:11:36 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: <53D5CE73-484C-4C49-87EE-9A287A908E7F@gmail.com> References: <92F57853-837A-4860-9F78-A337E039D74C@mac.com> <7cd1d1ae0908261754t1299386dj132b105fc5ef81d0@mail.gmail.com> <197339.89856.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <53D5CE73-484C-4C49-87EE-9A287A908E7F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <814BCCB9-7BD3-45AE-9FDF-35526BC62383@mac.com> Google searches aren't that interesting anymore. Most people go to Wikipedia when they try to learn about some general term (like XQuery), isn't it ? Anybody knows how to get such statistics from them ? Thanks, best regards Dana On Aug 27, 2009, at 10:50 AM, Paul Agbetile wrote: > I'm guilty of a generalisation. I'd assumed an ecosystem of > languages under which I felt XQuery would naturally find a home to > work in conjuction with. i.e Java, xpath, C#. These have seen a > slump. However I must admit some of these like Perl had begun a > slump long before the downturn. > > I do find LINQ a curious case. > I can only assume Microsoft's tentacles with its developer SDK and > the attraction to gold partners are so far reaching it has provided > it free publicity which is why it has bucked the trend. > > With Cloud computing also being one of those things that appears in > every IT magazine that lands on an IT managers desk (thanks in part > large to advertising budgets by virtualisation companies) I'm sure > this lead to google hits. I also know a few people who probably > think they should know what it is in case ever discussed in a meeting. > > I wouldn't be surprised if during a downturn companies still spent > on applications that relate more to multimedia and advertising such > as Adobe AIR than core ETL type development. > > On 27 Aug 2009, at 17:23, Ken North wrote: > >>>> I am not sure google trends at present is a good indicator of >>>> XQuery's uptake as searches across all major programming >>>> languages has slumped over the past 12 - 18 months. Personally I >>>> am more inclined to link this to the current economic downturn... >> >> Hmm... >> >> Both LINQ and cloud computing show a steady increase in the number >> of searches from 2007-2009. For LINQ searches, English ranked as >> the seventh language. >> http://www.google.com/trends?q=LINQ%2C+%22cloud+computing%22&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0 >> >> SaaS is up slightly in 2007-2009 versus 2004-2005. >> >> XQuery versus Grails and Adobe AIR >> http://www.google.com/trends?q=XQuery%2C+%22Adobe+AIR%22%2C+Grails&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=1 >> >> The number of searches for LINQ is an upward trend, along with some >> framework and platform-related searches. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> talk@x-query.com >> http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk > _______________________________________________ > talk@x-query.com > http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk From kennorth at sbcglobal.net Thu Aug 27 13:23:41 2009 From: kennorth at sbcglobal.net (Ken North) Date: Thu Aug 27 12:11:08 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: <814BCCB9-7BD3-45AE-9FDF-35526BC62383@mac.com> References: <92F57853-837A-4860-9F78-A337E039D74C@mac.com> <7cd1d1ae0908261754t1299386dj132b105fc5ef81d0@mail.gmail.com> <197339.89856.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <53D5CE73-484C-4C49-87EE-9A287A908E7F@gmail.com> <814BCCB9-7BD3-45AE-9FDF-35526BC62383@mac.com> Message-ID: <597117.29513.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> RDF, SQL, HTML, XML??at?Wikipedia Google Page Rank 7 XQuery at Wikipedia Google PR 6 LINQ, Java, C#, SOAP, AJAX frameworks Google PR 6 WSDL Google PR 5 From gandhi.mukul at gmail.com Fri Aug 28 09:48:25 2009 From: gandhi.mukul at gmail.com (Mukul Gandhi) Date: Thu Aug 27 19:51:25 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: <92F57853-837A-4860-9F78-A337E039D74C@mac.com> References: <92F57853-837A-4860-9F78-A337E039D74C@mac.com> Message-ID: <7870f82e0908272018y59e2bc5dy4e462bc30037f104@mail.gmail.com> I believe, people who are using the newer relational-XML hybrid databases, which have SQL & XQuery hybrid processors, are probably using XQuery a lot (in conjunction with SQL). Or to say, newer applications using these hybrid databases, are most likely designing their data models, as relational-XML combined models, and they most likely are taking advantage of XQuery to query/update these hybrid data models. I think, XQuery working on XML files in a filesystem, still faces a stong competition with XSLT. It seems to me, XSLT is a leading technology in this area. On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 10:37 PM, Daniela Florescu wrote: > Dear all, > > almost every time when I give a talk about XQuery I get confronted > with the same ?question, to which I do not know the answer. > > The question from the audience always is: " How many XQuery developers are > there? " > -- with the underlying assumption that, indeed, there are not that many. > > Please help me with this. I honestly don't know the answer. > > How do you appreciate the size of the XQuery developers community ? > (thousands, > tens of thousands, millions !!??) > > Thanks in advance, best regards > Dana -- Regards, Mukul Gandhi From mike at saxonica.com Fri Aug 28 10:41:24 2009 From: mike at saxonica.com (Michael Kay) Date: Fri Aug 28 01:05:44 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: <7870f82e0908272018y59e2bc5dy4e462bc30037f104@mail.gmail.com> References: <92F57853-837A-4860-9F78-A337E039D74C@mac.com> <7870f82e0908272018y59e2bc5dy4e462bc30037f104@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > I believe, people who are using the newer relational-XML > hybrid databases, which have SQL & XQuery hybrid processors, > are probably using XQuery a lot (in conjunction with SQL). Well, it's difficult to tell. In my experience working with clients using such systems, it can be very difficult to wean the developers off the familiar SQL side of the product. If you allow developers to continue using their old tools while also having access to new and unfamiliar tools, they will often take the path of least resistance. That (together with the sheer complexity that comes from mixing two query languages with different lexical rules, different function libraries, and different data types) is one reason why I think you are much better off using an "XML-only" database system. Regards, Michael Kay http://www.saxonica.com/ http://twitter.com/michaelhkay From gandhi.mukul at gmail.com Fri Aug 28 16:09:24 2009 From: gandhi.mukul at gmail.com (Mukul Gandhi) Date: Fri Aug 28 02:02:53 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: References: <92F57853-837A-4860-9F78-A337E039D74C@mac.com> <7870f82e0908272018y59e2bc5dy4e462bc30037f104@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7870f82e0908280239t1b19fc4at2c6187063955a406@mail.gmail.com> Hi Mike, I have no doubts, about usefulness of XML format. It's tremendously useful. But I also think, that relational format is much useful even today. We know, various reasons why relational model is beneficial (like high security, faster processing, transactional support etc). Today, many people like to model data only as relational form. Likewise, many people like modeling data as XML. And there are also many people, who like to model data as relational plus XML (which has become easier, with the newer hybrid relational/XML products) [1]. To support development, for people who want to use relation plus XML paradigm [1], I think hybrid SQL-XQuery processors are quite useful. If we keep SQL and XQuery processors separate, it will probably take more effort and programming logic to combine relational and XML data. On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 2:11 PM, Michael Kay wrote: > Well, it's difficult to tell. In my experience working with clients using > such systems, it can be very difficult to wean the developers off the > familiar SQL side of the product. If you allow developers to continue using > their old tools while also having access to new and unfamiliar tools, they > will often take the path of least resistance. That (together with the sheer > complexity that comes from mixing two query languages with different lexical > rules, different function libraries, and different data types) is one reason > why I think you are much better off using an "XML-only" database system. -- Regards, Mukul Gandhi From wcandillon at gmail.com Fri Aug 28 13:35:12 2009 From: wcandillon at gmail.com (William Candillon) Date: Fri Aug 28 02:57:49 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: <7870f82e0908280239t1b19fc4at2c6187063955a406@mail.gmail.com> References: <92F57853-837A-4860-9F78-A337E039D74C@mac.com> <7870f82e0908272018y59e2bc5dy4e462bc30037f104@mail.gmail.com> <7870f82e0908280239t1b19fc4at2c6187063955a406@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43b5c44e0908280335h1aad173ek8b8ab3e805aae3b0@mail.gmail.com> Maybe the XQuery community should start local and informal XQuery User Group Meetup in some area. I would be a great indicator of the size of the community and maybe boost a little bit the interest of some developers. Best regards, William On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 11:39 AM, Mukul Gandhi wrote: > Hi Mike, > ? I have no doubts, about usefulness of XML format. It's tremendously useful. > > But I also think, that relational format is much useful even today. We > know, various reasons why relational model is beneficial (like high > security, faster processing, transactional support etc). > > Today, many people like to model data only as relational form. > Likewise, many people like modeling data as XML. And there are also > many people, who like to model data as relational plus XML (which has > become easier, with the newer hybrid relational/XML products) [1]. > > To support development, for people who want to use relation plus XML > paradigm [1], I think hybrid SQL-XQuery processors are quite useful. > If we keep SQL and XQuery processors separate, it will probably take > more effort and programming logic to combine relational and XML data. > > On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 2:11 PM, Michael Kay wrote: >> Well, it's difficult to tell. In my experience working with clients using >> such systems, it can be very difficult to wean the developers off the >> familiar SQL side of the product. If you allow developers to continue using >> their old tools while also having access to new and unfamiliar tools, they >> will often take the path of least resistance. That (together with the sheer >> complexity that comes from mixing two query languages with different lexical >> rules, different function libraries, and different data types) is one reason >> why I think you are much better off using an "XML-only" database system. > > > > -- > Regards, > Mukul Gandhi > _______________________________________________ > talk@x-query.com > http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk > From lists at fgeorges.org Fri Aug 28 12:44:15 2009 From: lists at fgeorges.org (Florent Georges) Date: Fri Aug 28 04:05:14 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: <43b5c44e0908280335h1aad173ek8b8ab3e805aae3b0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <691734.18525.qm@web23008.mail.ird.yahoo.com> William Candillon wrote: > I would be a great indicator of the size of the community ^^^ :-) -- Florent Georges http://www.fgeorges.org/ From mail at martin-probst.com Fri Aug 28 15:05:01 2009 From: mail at martin-probst.com (Martin Probst) Date: Fri Aug 28 04:25:17 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: <7870f82e0908280239t1b19fc4at2c6187063955a406@mail.gmail.com> References: <92F57853-837A-4860-9F78-A337E039D74C@mac.com> <7870f82e0908272018y59e2bc5dy4e462bc30037f104@mail.gmail.com> <7870f82e0908280239t1b19fc4at2c6187063955a406@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6dca08520908280505p1f588b4at5c1f8f4e42eec7b0@mail.gmail.com> > But I also think, that relational format is much useful even today. We > know, various reasons why relational model is beneficial (like high > security, faster processing, transactional support etc). While there is certainly a potential performance benefit in processing fixed length records (relational) compared to arbitrary trees (XML), exploiting this benefit leads to the schema evolution problems that plague so many SQL users. I'm not sure whether the benefit is actually worth the hassle of near-impossible to change schemata, there are certainly many ares (e.g. document management) where the tradeoff favors XML. Security and transaction support are not really differentiators, X-Hive/DB has had a full ACID transactional DOM implementation since 1999, including access rights and all. Other XML databases have similar features. For most document centric applications XML databases would be a huge win. What's holding them back is IMHO lack of awareness and lack of polished, complete development environments and toolsets; Documentum DDS aims at this. And I'm still very sceptical about using XQuery as a sole web development language, the approaches I've seen so far have not been compelling at all. Regards Martin From newmanjw at upmc.edu Fri Aug 28 13:30:39 2009 From: newmanjw at upmc.edu (Newman, John W) Date: Fri Aug 28 09:24:50 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] Help with multiple deletes Message-ID: Hello, I have a tree structure and I am trying to use XQuery to delete nodes from it. Here's a simple example of what I have and what needs to happen: The user is allowed to delete leaf nodes. Say the user clicks delete on leaf 25 there, I'm building an XPath expression down to it, like so: //tree[@ID = 1] /branch[@ID = 2] /branch[@ID = 13] /branch[@ID = 65] /branch[@ID = 15] /leaf[@ID = 25] The problem is, after deleting the leaf node, I am left with a 'dead' branch. So branch 15 should also be deleted, and so on up the tree, in this case branch 65 also. Branches 2 & 13 are left in place since count(.//leaf) > 0 I think there are probably several ways to do this with XQuery. My current approach should work, in theory, although I am too new to XQuery to figure out how to write it correctly. :) I think there is probably a clean, 1 line solution somewhere. Anyway, this is what I am currently trying: Step 1, delete the leaf itself copy $x := doc("tree.xml") modify ( delete node $x//tree[@ID = 1] /branch[@ID = 2] /branch[@ID = 13] /branch[@ID = 65] /branch[@ID = 15] /leaf[@ID = 25] ) return $x This correctly gives back the tree without that leaf, but it leaves dead branches: So, step 2, delete any branches that don't have leaves underneath, and then likewise any trees that don't have branches: copy $x := doc("tree.xml") modify ( delete node $x//tree[@ID = 1] /branch[@ID = 2] /branch[@ID = 13] /branch[@ID = 65] /branch[@ID = 15] /leaf[@ID = 25] , delete node $x//tree//branch[count(.//leaf) = 0] , delete node $x//tree[count(.//branch) = 0] ) return $x However the 2nd delete isn't exactly working, the dead branches are still there. I think since it is operating on $x which is the original document that has the leaf in place. If I save the output of each delete into a separate doc, and run each step one at a time, they work fine. So how I do write this query to operate on the same xml structure throughout? Or better yet, can anyone think of a one pass solution to this problem? Thanks, John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://x-query.com/pipermail/talk/attachments/20090828/19f0dd9e/attachment-0001.htm From gandhi.mukul at gmail.com Fri Aug 28 23:30:54 2009 From: gandhi.mukul at gmail.com (Mukul Gandhi) Date: Fri Aug 28 09:54:40 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: <6dca08520908280505p1f588b4at5c1f8f4e42eec7b0@mail.gmail.com> References: <92F57853-837A-4860-9F78-A337E039D74C@mac.com> <7870f82e0908272018y59e2bc5dy4e462bc30037f104@mail.gmail.com> <7870f82e0908280239t1b19fc4at2c6187063955a406@mail.gmail.com> <6dca08520908280505p1f588b4at5c1f8f4e42eec7b0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7870f82e0908281000w3f2575g2c86bdf78ccd6ba7@mail.gmail.com> Hi Martin, I agree to many of your points. Kindly see my answers to some specific points, you have mentioned. On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 5:35 PM, Martin Probst wrote: > exploiting this benefit leads to the schema evolution problems that > plague so many SQL users. I'm not sure whether the benefit is actually > worth the hassle of near-impossible to change schemata I very much agree to this. Where the schema is volatile, XML is a good choice, than relational model. With relational model, frequent schema changes is much harder, than with XML. > For most document centric applications XML databases would be a huge > win. I agree to this, as well. > And I'm still very sceptical about using XQuery as a > sole web development language, the approaches I've seen so far have > not been compelling at all. As I wrote earlier, people who design relational plus XML combined data models, have a good choice with hybrid SQL plus XQuery processing, for manipulating such data. Most of the large DB vendors, seem to be promoting this design. -- Regards, Mukul Gandhi From rob at koberg.com Fri Aug 28 11:13:09 2009 From: rob at koberg.com (Robert Koberg) Date: Fri Aug 28 10:06:24 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: <899731D1-8EDD-432E-86F8-0D9A720D6162@gmail.com> References: <92F57853-837A-4860-9F78-A337E039D74C@mac.com> <7870f82e0908272018y59e2bc5dy4e462bc30037f104@mail.gmail.com> <7870f82e0908280239t1b19fc4at2c6187063955a406@mail.gmail.com> <6dca08520908280505p1f588b4at5c1f8f4e42eec7b0@mail.gmail.com> <7870f82e0908281000w3f2575g2c86bdf78ccd6ba7@mail.gmail.com> <899731D1-8EDD-432E-86F8-0D9A720D6162@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Aug 28, 2009, at 10:00 AM, Mukul Gandhi wrote: > Hi Martin, > I agree to many of your points. Kindly see my answers to some > specific points, you have mentioned. > > On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 5:35 PM, Martin Probst probst.com> wrote: >> exploiting this benefit leads to the schema evolution problems that >> plague so many SQL users. I'm not sure whether the benefit is >> actually >> worth the hassle of near-impossible to change schemata > > I very much agree to this. Where the schema is volatile, XML is a good > choice, than relational model. With relational model, frequent schema > changes is much harder, than with XML. There is also the option of JSON DBs like Perservere, MongoDB (and maybe CouchDB if you like the flatness). Gives you the same schema- less storage capabilities, but using JavaScript instead of XQuery. Which do you think is easier for someone to pick up? Of course, you are kind of screwed with a JSON DB if you deal with a good deal of mixed content. -Rob From rpbourret at rpbourret.com Fri Aug 28 11:29:30 2009 From: rpbourret at rpbourret.com (Ronald Bourret) Date: Fri Aug 28 10:22:15 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: <6dca08520908280505p1f588b4at5c1f8f4e42eec7b0@mail.gmail.com> References: <92F57853-837A-4860-9F78-A337E039D74C@mac.com> <7870f82e0908272018y59e2bc5dy4e462bc30037f104@mail.gmail.com> <7870f82e0908280239t1b19fc4at2c6187063955a406@mail.gmail.com> <6dca08520908280505p1f588b4at5c1f8f4e42eec7b0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A9813FA.9080503@rpbourret.com> Martin Probst wrote: > While there is certainly a potential performance benefit in processing > fixed length records (relational) compared to arbitrary trees (XML), > exploiting this benefit leads to the schema evolution problems that > plague so many SQL users. I'm not sure whether the benefit is actually > worth the hassle of near-impossible to change schemata, there are > certainly many ares (e.g. document management) where the tradeoff > favors XML. Agreed. When I surveyed XML database vendors a few years ago about the kinds of applications their customers were building, schema evolution was one of the common use cases (the others being managing/querying documents, certain types of data integration, and semi-structured data). What was interesting about all of these use cases was that they were places where people had tried to use relational databases and simply couldn't get them to work. Either the data simply didn't fit the relational model or the resulting code was too slow/unmanageable. > For most document centric applications XML databases would be a huge > win. What's holding them back is IMHO lack of awareness Agreed again. On the positive side, people now know that XML databases exist, understand what they are, and don't dismiss them out of hand. Five years ago, a significant portion of the XML cognescenti (much less the general public) didn't even know what an XML database was. Now, I see them mentioned in mainstream computer magazines. On the other hand, I had hoped that the inclusion of an XML data type and XQuery in relational databases would cause an explosion in the use of XQuery and XML databases in general. If this has happened, it was a very quiet explosion. One simple measure is the extent to which the major database vendors push XML as a selling point -- that is, how much their users care about XML. DB2 does push it fairly hard, but Oracle only gives it a mention and it barely shows up in SQL Server marketing. It's also significant that none of these databases has significantly upgraded their XML support in the past few years. -- Ron From mike at saxonica.com Fri Aug 28 19:51:49 2009 From: mike at saxonica.com (Michael Kay) Date: Fri Aug 28 10:44:14 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] Help with multiple deletes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3DB0A77C0BF7442A999E05B80A260770@Sealion> >Or better yet, can anyone think of a one pass solution to this problem? Change the second delete to delete node $x//branch[count(.//leaf[@ID != 25]) = 0] Regards, Michael Kay http://www.saxonica.com/ http://twitter.com/michaelhkay _____ From: talk-bounces@x-query.com [mailto:talk-bounces@x-query.com] On Behalf Of Newman, John W Sent: 28 August 2009 17:31 To: talk@x-query.com Subject: [xquery-talk] Help with multiple deletes Hello, I have a tree structure and I am trying to use XQuery to delete nodes from it. Here's a simple example of what I have and what needs to happen: The user is allowed to delete leaf nodes. Say the user clicks delete on leaf 25 there, I'm building an XPath expression down to it, like so: //tree[@ID = 1] /branch[@ID = 2] /branch[@ID = 13] /branch[@ID = 65] /branch[@ID = 15] /leaf[@ID = 25] The problem is, after deleting the leaf node, I am left with a 'dead' branch. So branch 15 should also be deleted, and so on up the tree, in this case branch 65 also. Branches 2 & 13 are left in place since count(.//leaf) > 0 I think there are probably several ways to do this with XQuery. My current approach should work, in theory, although I am too new to XQuery to figure out how to write it correctly. J I think there is probably a clean, 1 line solution somewhere. Anyway, this is what I am currently trying: Step 1, delete the leaf itself copy $x := doc("tree.xml") modify ( delete node $x//tree[@ID = 1] /branch[@ID = 2] /branch[@ID = 13] /branch[@ID = 65] /branch[@ID = 15] /leaf[@ID = 25] ) return $x This correctly gives back the tree without that leaf, but it leaves dead branches: So, step 2, delete any branches that don't have leaves underneath, and then likewise any trees that don't have branches: copy $x := doc("tree.xml") modify ( delete node $x//tree[@ID = 1] /branch[@ID = 2] /branch[@ID = 13] /branch[@ID = 65] /branch[@ID = 15] /leaf[@ID = 25] , delete node $x//tree//branch[count(.//leaf) = 0] , delete node $x//tree[count(.//branch) = 0] ) return $x However the 2nd delete isn't exactly working, the dead branches are still there. I think since it is operating on $x which is the original document that has the leaf in place. If I save the output of each delete into a separate doc, and run each step one at a time, they work fine. So how I do write this query to operate on the same xml structure throughout? Or better yet, can anyone think of a one pass solution to this problem? Thanks, John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://x-query.com/pipermail/talk/attachments/20090828/84dc363d/attachment-0001.htm From kennorth at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 28 14:07:02 2009 From: kennorth at sbcglobal.net (Ken North) Date: Fri Aug 28 12:56:32 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: <4A9813FA.9080503@rpbourret.com> References: <92F57853-837A-4860-9F78-A337E039D74C@mac.com> <7870f82e0908272018y59e2bc5dy4e462bc30037f104@mail.gmail.com> <7870f82e0908280239t1b19fc4at2c6187063955a406@mail.gmail.com> <6dca08520908280505p1f588b4at5c1f8f4e42eec7b0@mail.gmail.com> <4A9813FA.9080503@rpbourret.com> Message-ID: <460122.13636.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> >>?schema evolution was one of the common use cases (the others being managing/querying documents, certain types of data integration, and semi-structured data). PODS?at the UCLA Health System fits the common use case you describe. It?is part of a service-oriented architecture and it exposes?service interfaces for users of clinical systems. PODS?handles a?steady stream of new forms and XML schemas (currently more than?400) and supports HL7-compliant ?messaging. The database grows by?about 12,000 new documents per day, with?patient metadata?stored as XML in a DB2 database that's currently about 30 million rows. From newmanjw at upmc.edu Fri Aug 28 17:10:41 2009 From: newmanjw at upmc.edu (Newman, John W) Date: Fri Aug 28 13:00:08 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] Help with multiple deletes In-Reply-To: <3DB0A77C0BF7442A999E05B80A260770@Sealion> References: <3DB0A77C0BF7442A999E05B80A260770@Sealion> Message-ID: Thank you Michael. One thing I should have mentioned in the original email, is that the leaf IDs can be shared across different branches. But branches are only used once across all trees. So if there is That query would delete all three branches when the user only wants to delete branch 8. I was able to adjust it to also look at the parent branch ID. delete node $x//branch[count(.//leaf[@ID != 25 or (@ID = 25 and (ancestor::branch[1])[@ID != 8])]) = 0] After I spent a nice chunk of time testing this in stylus studio, I took the concept and ported it into our application. Only to discover that the implementation we are using, MXQuery 0.6.0, does not support ancestor! Argh.. =) So if anyone thinks it can possibly be rewritten without using ancestor (or any other axes I'm guessing), please share your thoughts. But I think we are going to end up using an XSLT for this operation. -John From: Michael Kay [mailto:mike@saxonica.com] Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 1:52 PM To: Newman, John W; talk@x-query.com Subject: RE: [xquery-talk] Help with multiple deletes >Or better yet, can anyone think of a one pass solution to this problem? Change the second delete to delete node $x//branch[count(.//leaf[@ID != 25]) = 0] Regards, Michael Kay http://www.saxonica.com/ http://twitter.com/michaelhkay ________________________________ From: talk-bounces@x-query.com [mailto:talk-bounces@x-query.com] On Behalf Of Newman, John W Sent: 28 August 2009 17:31 To: talk@x-query.com Subject: [xquery-talk] Help with multiple deletes Hello, I have a tree structure and I am trying to use XQuery to delete nodes from it. Here's a simple example of what I have and what needs to happen: The user is allowed to delete leaf nodes. Say the user clicks delete on leaf 25 there, I'm building an XPath expression down to it, like so: //tree[@ID = 1] /branch[@ID = 2] /branch[@ID = 13] /branch[@ID = 65] /branch[@ID = 15] /leaf[@ID = 25] The problem is, after deleting the leaf node, I am left with a 'dead' branch. So branch 15 should also be deleted, and so on up the tree, in this case branch 65 also. Branches 2 & 13 are left in place since count(.//leaf) > 0 I think there are probably several ways to do this with XQuery. My current approach should work, in theory, although I am too new to XQuery to figure out how to write it correctly. :) I think there is probably a clean, 1 line solution somewhere. Anyway, this is what I am currently trying: Step 1, delete the leaf itself copy $x := doc("tree.xml") modify ( delete node $x//tree[@ID = 1] /branch[@ID = 2] /branch[@ID = 13] /branch[@ID = 65] /branch[@ID = 15] /leaf[@ID = 25] ) return $x This correctly gives back the tree without that leaf, but it leaves dead branches: So, step 2, delete any branches that don't have leaves underneath, and then likewise any trees that don't have branches: copy $x := doc("tree.xml") modify ( delete node $x//tree[@ID = 1] /branch[@ID = 2] /branch[@ID = 13] /branch[@ID = 65] /branch[@ID = 15] /leaf[@ID = 25] , delete node $x//tree//branch[count(.//leaf) = 0] , delete node $x//tree[count(.//branch) = 0] ) return $x However the 2nd delete isn't exactly working, the dead branches are still there. I think since it is operating on $x which is the original document that has the leaf in place. If I save the output of each delete into a separate doc, and run each step one at a time, they work fine. So how I do write this query to operate on the same xml structure throughout? Or better yet, can anyone think of a one pass solution to this problem? Thanks, John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://x-query.com/pipermail/talk/attachments/20090828/09df7e78/attachment-0001.htm From vyacheslav.sedov at gmail.com Sat Aug 29 01:32:29 2009 From: vyacheslav.sedov at gmail.com (Vyacheslav Sedov) Date: Fri Aug 28 13:21:28 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: <460122.13636.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <92F57853-837A-4860-9F78-A337E039D74C@mac.com> <7870f82e0908272018y59e2bc5dy4e462bc30037f104@mail.gmail.com> <7870f82e0908280239t1b19fc4at2c6187063955a406@mail.gmail.com> <6dca08520908280505p1f588b4at5c1f8f4e42eec7b0@mail.gmail.com> <4A9813FA.9080503@rpbourret.com> <460122.13636.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7ab7cbac0908281332p37cedc48t3d360bb6d3e424df@mail.gmail.com> Hello there, Look like XQuery developers very respectable peoples in UK http://www.itjobswatch.co.uk/jobs/uk/xquery.do But in Russia... Well... Now i am looking for remote XQuery/XSLT job - today i got final notification about eviction from flat owner. It is true. I have only one month to restore regular payments or leave flat. I just have not time to find someone who can help me to sell my program to other regions of Russia - except Moscow region count of rest is equal to 83 (if i`ll sell to each for about 1000$ - it mean about 84 000$ total). I sell this program to Moscow region already but price (about 2000$ just cover my development time living - this program automate government report (standard report for each region - regions here like states in US), so no need to reconstruct code for each region - just sell (maybe SaS - it is web-based system)). Working with russian government not so fast especially if you don`t wish to give bribe for g-man. I am worry that i will be forced to leave my current flat. Social security work very bad in Russia - i can get support from government but max value is about 100$ monthly, to pay for flat rent i need at least 500$ + about 500$ for food for me and my pets. I should note that i am *not* interested in growing amount of XQuery/XSLT developers - more developers at street mean that more petty tyrant became your boss. Wide jeans on you can lead him to hysteria - especially if at street here already 2 that are ready to wear even ties. But i am still give advice to young developers focus on XML (XSLT, XQuery, eXist) - "be good and you will be lucky" (c) "Artificial intelligence" movie But http://hh.ru/applicant/searchvacancyresult.xml?areaId=113&text=xquery&professionalAreaId=0&desireableCompensation=&compensationCurrencyId=1 no vacancy at all related with XQuery in Russia nor for developers in baggy jeans nor for developers in ties (at least at moment of posting - this one http://hh.ru/vacancy/2212967?query=xquery is in Ukraine, not Russia). i am work from 2000 only with XSLT 1.0 and from 2007 with XSLT 2.0 & XQuery (Marklogic), my last project i did in eXist (this government report tool that i have to sell), so even if i agree to "skill downgrade" i will not survive in pre-xml world, i note that after working in Wiley i even almost forgot XForms - i used them little in 2003-2006 but not use XForms in Wiley at all. So i am not sure that i can be good asp/ms-sql programmer or php/mySQL (i start learn xml/xslt from MS SQL Server 7.0 SQLXML ability - data from stored procedures in xml format turned into xhtml by xslt without intermediate language like C# or Java). Also i have good skills with OOXML&ODF file formats. With best wishes, Slav, http://xquery.tel p.s. sorry about off-topic but it vital - i spend all resources to survive from january 2009 when i leave Wiley (my last job) - so posting here is my last hope. p.s.s. Thank you for reading so long. ;) From int19h at gmail.com Fri Aug 28 20:38:54 2009 From: int19h at gmail.com (Pavel Minaev) Date: Fri Aug 28 19:18:22 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] Relative URIs in namespaces Message-ID: I'm trying to find out what is the defined semantics for the use of relative URIs for namespaces. For example: declare namespace foo = "foo"; So far as I can see, there's nothing restricting the use of such namespaces in the spec: "foo" in above code sample is an UriLiteral, and portable XQuery code must ensure that it is in the lexical namespace of xs:anyURI; and the latter explicitly allows for relative references, which this one is. As long as we're dealing with XDM, I also don't see any special casing of relative namespace URIs - the produced element node would have a QName, and that QName is represented by (anyURI, NCName) tuple, again with no restrictions on URI values. So it would seem that working with such node within XQuery is fully well-defined, and the URI is effectively treated simply as an identifier, a sequence of characters with no particular meaning (except that it must match the grammar in RFC2396) - correct me if I'm wrong. As a side note, the same seems to apply to URIs used for module target namespaces and schemas. However, it is not clear to me what should happen when the output is mapped to XML Infoset. The spec for the latter states rather unambiguously: "Furthermore, this specification does not define an information set for documents which use relative URI references in namespace declarations." And yet, XDM spec does not talk about relative namespaces URIs when describing Infoset mapping at all. For example, 6.2.5, which describes mapping of elements, simply says that Infoset namespace name is the namespace name of dm:node-name() of the element - as given, this would translate the relative URI directly. I also cannot find anything about this in Serialization. What does this give, ultimately? Is the output of XQuery code given above completely undefined, or merely implementation-defined in some aspects? Must the implementation nonetheless guarantee some output, or can it signal an error? Also, if indeed allowed, is the practice of using relative namespace URIs in any way deprecated in XQuery spec (or other documents that it normatively references), the same way they are deprecated in XML Namespaces? From gandhi.mukul at gmail.com Sat Aug 29 10:14:22 2009 From: gandhi.mukul at gmail.com (Mukul Gandhi) Date: Fri Aug 28 20:21:42 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] Relative URIs in namespaces In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7870f82e0908282044x727efdc2r68ad97922099072c@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Aug 29, 2009 at 8:08 AM, Pavel Minaev wrote: > Also, if indeed allowed, is the practice of using relative namespace > URIs in any way deprecated in XQuery spec (or other documents that it > normatively references), the same way they are deprecated in XML > Namespaces? Yes, you are right. Use of relative URI references in namespace declarations is deprecated, by the Namespaces in XML 1.0 spec, (ref: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml-names/#iri-use). The page, http://www.w3.org/2000/09/xppa has more information about this recommendation. -- Regards, Mukul Gandhi From int19h at gmail.com Fri Aug 28 23:56:00 2009 From: int19h at gmail.com (Pavel Minaev) Date: Fri Aug 28 22:29:19 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] Relative URIs in namespaces In-Reply-To: <7870f82e0908282044x727efdc2r68ad97922099072c@mail.gmail.com> References: <7870f82e0908282044x727efdc2r68ad97922099072c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 8:44 PM, Mukul Gandhi wrote: > On Sat, Aug 29, 2009 at 8:08 AM, Pavel Minaev wrote: >> Also, if indeed allowed, is the practice of using relative namespace >> URIs in any way deprecated in XQuery spec (or other documents that it >> normatively references), the same way they are deprecated in XML >> Namespaces? > > Yes, you are right. Use of relative URI references in namespace > declarations is deprecated, by the Namespaces in XML 1.0 spec, (ref: > http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml-names/#iri-use). The page, > http://www.w3.org/2000/09/xppa has more information about this > recommendation. It is clearly deprecated in XML Namespaces and XML Infoset. However, I don't see how this deprecation applies to XQuery directly. Literal result elements in the latter, for example, aren't defined by either spec. From gandhi.mukul at gmail.com Sat Aug 29 20:31:01 2009 From: gandhi.mukul at gmail.com (Mukul Gandhi) Date: Sat Aug 29 06:58:43 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] Relative URIs in namespaces In-Reply-To: References: <7870f82e0908282044x727efdc2r68ad97922099072c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7870f82e0908290701n52d9e710g251898618869074c@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Aug 29, 2009 at 11:26 AM, Pavel Minaev wrote: > It is clearly deprecated in XML Namespaces and XML Infoset. However, I > don't see how this deprecation applies to XQuery directly. Literal > result elements in the latter, for example, aren't defined by either > spec. "Namespaces in XML" is listed as a normative reference in XQuery spec. So I guess, this deprecation applies to XQuery spec as well. -- Regards, Mukul Gandhi From mike at saxonica.com Sat Aug 29 16:30:56 2009 From: mike at saxonica.com (Michael Kay) Date: Sat Aug 29 07:26:57 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] Relative URIs in namespaces In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <885A8161B21746C38312629FDB509C24@Sealion> > So far as I can see, there's nothing restricting the use of > such namespaces in the spec: "foo" in above code sample is an > UriLiteral, and portable XQuery code must ensure that it is > in the lexical namespace of xs:anyURI; and the latter > explicitly allows for relative references, which this one is. Correct. > > However, it is not clear to me what should happen when the > output is mapped to XML Infoset. The spec for the latter states rather > unambiguously: > > "Furthermore, this specification does not define an > information set for documents which use relative URI > references in namespace declarations." If you try to create a document with relative URIs as namespaces and then convert it to something that doesn't allow relative URIs (XOM is an example), you will get an error. Generally, the QT specs decided to be permissive about what a namespace URI can contain. The reason for that is that the history of other relevant specs makes it very unclear what's allowed and what isn't. For example, the first edition of the Namespaces Rec did not even require that the namespace should be a legal URI: it uses the phrase "The attribute's value, a URI reference, is the namespace name identifying the namespace" but nowhere says that it is an error (or that the document is not namespace-well-formed) if the namespace name is not a legal URI reference. This was fixed in the second edition, which says "The attribute's normalized value MUST be either a URI reference - the namespace name identifying the namespace - or an empty string.". Equally, the XSD specs have been very unclear about what the legal values of an anyURI (and hence a QName, and hence a namespace) are - in XSD 1.1, an xs:anyURI can contain any sequence of Unicode characters. So, the whole area is very messy. If you're choosing namespaces, play safe and use a legal absolute URI. If you're writing an XQuery processor, play safe and allow any character string. Regards, Michael Kay http://www.saxonica.com/ http://twitter.com/michaelhkay From mail at martin-probst.com Sat Aug 29 17:47:16 2009 From: mail at martin-probst.com (Martin Probst) Date: Sat Aug 29 07:42:34 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] Help with multiple deletes In-Reply-To: References: <3DB0A77C0BF7442A999E05B80A260770@Sealion> Message-ID: <6dca08520908290747p249675feo8dc503ed8015eb84@mail.gmail.com> > After I spent a nice chunk of time testing this in stylus studio, I took the > concept and ported it into our application.? Only to discover that the > implementation we are using, MXQuery 0.6.0, does not support ancestor! > Argh..? =)? So if anyone thinks it can possibly be rewritten without using > ancestor (or any other axes I?m guessing), please share your thoughts.? But > I think we are going to end up using an XSLT for this operation. You could simply transform twice, which might be less efficient, but its certainly simpler to write: copy $x := doc("tree.xml") modify ( delete node $x//tree[@ID = 1] /branch[@ID = 2] /branch[@ID = 13] /branch[@ID = 65] /branch[@ID = 15] /leaf[@ID = 25] ) return copy $y := $x modify ( delete node $x//tree//branch[count(.//leaf) = 0] , delete node $x//tree[count(.//branch) = 0] ) return $y Martin From mail at martin-probst.com Sat Aug 29 18:00:32 2009 From: mail at martin-probst.com (Martin Probst) Date: Sat Aug 29 07:55:28 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: References: <92F57853-837A-4860-9F78-A337E039D74C@mac.com> <7870f82e0908272018y59e2bc5dy4e462bc30037f104@mail.gmail.com> <7870f82e0908280239t1b19fc4at2c6187063955a406@mail.gmail.com> <6dca08520908280505p1f588b4at5c1f8f4e42eec7b0@mail.gmail.com> <7870f82e0908281000w3f2575g2c86bdf78ccd6ba7@mail.gmail.com> <899731D1-8EDD-432E-86F8-0D9A720D6162@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6dca08520908290800w704178acw4adb46816bceef6e@mail.gmail.com> > There is also the option of JSON DBs like Perservere, MongoDB (and maybe > CouchDB if you like the flatness). Gives you the same schema-less storage > capabilities, but using JavaScript instead of XQuery. Which do you think is > easier for someone to pick up? Of course, you are kind of screwed with a > JSON DB if you deal with a good deal of mixed content. JSON sucks for mixed content, while XML/XQuery is pretty bad at supporting key/value maps. Both is possible in each of them, but painful. Judging from the attention to JSON and my own experiences, key/value is a very important use case that is badly covered by XML at the moment. Alas, the various JSON DBs had - at least when I looked the last time - practically no transaction support, and JavaScript as a query language is of course not really optimizable for index usage etc. Then again, no transactions and only being able to query by hash key apparently works for a surprisingly large amount of people. Or maybe their applications are not yet complex enought to feel the pain. Martin From mail at martin-probst.com Sat Aug 29 18:06:14 2009 From: mail at martin-probst.com (Martin Probst) Date: Sat Aug 29 08:01:02 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: <7870f82e0908281000w3f2575g2c86bdf78ccd6ba7@mail.gmail.com> References: <92F57853-837A-4860-9F78-A337E039D74C@mac.com> <7870f82e0908272018y59e2bc5dy4e462bc30037f104@mail.gmail.com> <7870f82e0908280239t1b19fc4at2c6187063955a406@mail.gmail.com> <6dca08520908280505p1f588b4at5c1f8f4e42eec7b0@mail.gmail.com> <7870f82e0908281000w3f2575g2c86bdf78ccd6ba7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6dca08520908290806p3a0cc123p14eff03dbfe59231@mail.gmail.com> > As I wrote earlier, people who design relational plus XML combined > data models, have a good choice with hybrid SQL plus XQuery > processing, for manipulating such data. Most of the large DB vendors, > seem to be promoting this design. It might just be me, but looking at SQL/XML makes my eyes bleed. Beyond that, the relational databases do support XML and XQuery somehow, but XML standards beyond that are virtually nonexistant. Shameless plug, but maybe still interesting to some: https://community.emc.com/docs/DOC-2999 Regards, Martin From gandhi.mukul at gmail.com Sat Aug 29 23:25:31 2009 From: gandhi.mukul at gmail.com (Mukul Gandhi) Date: Sat Aug 29 09:47:20 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: <6dca08520908290806p3a0cc123p14eff03dbfe59231@mail.gmail.com> References: <92F57853-837A-4860-9F78-A337E039D74C@mac.com> <7870f82e0908272018y59e2bc5dy4e462bc30037f104@mail.gmail.com> <7870f82e0908280239t1b19fc4at2c6187063955a406@mail.gmail.com> <6dca08520908280505p1f588b4at5c1f8f4e42eec7b0@mail.gmail.com> <7870f82e0908281000w3f2575g2c86bdf78ccd6ba7@mail.gmail.com> <6dca08520908290806p3a0cc123p14eff03dbfe59231@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7870f82e0908290955x34252679i193c655121144a29@mail.gmail.com> Hi Martin, Thanks for sharing this study. I won't comment on siding with particular vendors :) Though, I would like to further say a bit, generally about data management for software applications. I have felt, and also think that even today, data modelers like keeping an enterprise data in Relational storage. I think, XML started to be used as a format, for specific areas like configuration files, web service messages and so on. But today, enterprise data modelers are trying to use XML as well, to represent core business entities (for reasons, as we discussed, like schema volatility etc). XML certainly is a great format, and has uses in numerous applications. We all want to keep lot of data in XML form. Having said this, I don't think, that from an enterprise data architecture point of view, it's good to keep all enterprise data as XML. We need to have a hybrid relational, and XML storage. Relational DB users, had a pain long time ago (a few years back, I guess, when hybrid relational/XML DBs didn't exist), about how to store XML data in relational DBs. In earlier days, approaches like shredding XML data into relational tables were used. But this approach required extra effort in designing suitable relational schemas, for XML data. I think, with the introduction of XML type in relational DBs, and it's management with hybrid SQL/XQuery engines has brought tremendous relief to data modelers, and application architects, who can now much easily store, and access XML data in a relational DB. No design time thinking is needed now, by data modelers, about how they should store XML data in relational DBs. This design is now provided by the DB vendors (like the XML column, and hybrid SQL/XQuery processing) which is, or will become fairly standard in the near future. The integration of relational/XML data by these newer databases, has led to faster data designs, and also good data designs. But I do feel, that XML only databases are useful in certain areas, where we wish to keep all application data as XML. But to my opinion, XML only storage is not universal. Relational plus XML storage is near to universal, than XML only storage. On Sat, Aug 29, 2009 at 8:36 PM, Martin Probst wrote: > It might just be me, but looking at SQL/XML makes my eyes bleed. > Beyond that, the relational databases do support XML and XQuery > somehow, but XML standards beyond that are virtually nonexistant. > Shameless plug, but maybe still interesting to some: > > https://community.emc.com/docs/DOC-2999 > > Regards, > Martin -- Regards, Mukul Gandhi From kennorth at sbcglobal.net Sat Aug 29 12:11:31 2009 From: kennorth at sbcglobal.net (Ken North) Date: Sat Aug 29 11:00:14 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: <6dca08520908290806p3a0cc123p14eff03dbfe59231@mail.gmail.com> References: <92F57853-837A-4860-9F78-A337E039D74C@mac.com> <7870f82e0908272018y59e2bc5dy4e462bc30037f104@mail.gmail.com> <7870f82e0908280239t1b19fc4at2c6187063955a406@mail.gmail.com> <6dca08520908280505p1f588b4at5c1f8f4e42eec7b0@mail.gmail.com> <7870f82e0908281000w3f2575g2c86bdf78ccd6ba7@mail.gmail.com> <6dca08520908290806p3a0cc123p14eff03dbfe59231@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <710536.15808.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Martin Probst wrote: >>?Beyond that, the relational databases do support XML and XQuery somehow, but XML standards beyond that are virtually nonexistant. The analysis at https://community.emc.com/docs/DOC-2999?covers: * Oracle XML DB 11g Release 1(11.1) * IBM DB2 pureXML 9.5 * EMC Documentum xDB 9.0. (Known as X-Hive/DB before its acquisition by EMC in July 2007) A more comprehensive comparison would include Microsoft SQL Server and OpenLink Virtuoso. The latter is a universal database that's recently benchmarked as one of the fastest RDF data stores, loading 160,000 triples per second. From hrennau at yahoo.de Sun Aug 30 17:38:21 2009 From: hrennau at yahoo.de (Hans-Juergen Rennau) Date: Sun Aug 30 16:18:15 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: <200908261828.n7QISsCq032486@jhunter.x-query.com> References: <200908261828.n7QISsCq032486@jhunter.x-query.com> Message-ID: <238672.26663.qm@web27104.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> The question why XQuery has not yet become a widely used language has certainly many facets! But there is one which is easily overlooked: a widespread lack of a _deep_ understanding of XML. The vast majority of developers (and architects?) view XML essentially as a portable encoding. In other words: they look at XML at the lexical level, and they are not aware of the fact that the XDM constitutes a global, uniform information model, composed of a handful of concepts (sequence and item, six kinds of nodes, atomic types). They do not suspect that URIs and the XPath language create an information space in which any application is embedded and which it can ignore or use. They have not grasped the concept of an expression language whose values are information entities (that is, instances of that information model). So they are not aware of a new way of thought which strives to simplify things by designing information processing steps - consuming input information, emitting output information. The very concept of such steps is not alive in their imagination; accordingly, they show no interest in information processing languages (XSLT, XQuery, XProc). Perhaps the heart of the problem lies at the question how to integrate this new, information oriented view into object orientation. The latter, of course, remains _the_ paradigm, the former can only be a complement. It cannot replace object orientation, but it should and will modify how it is applied: it should influence the main abstractions governing a system design. Example: if you have to process external messages coming from different partners, having similar information content but different schemas, the obvious approach is to design an internal format, write software covering the functionality by processing/producing internal messages, and transform messages between external and internal format. To get the transformations done, all one has to do is write one class, which is configured by an XML file mapping format pairs to the names of stylesheets and or queries. I said "obvious", but experience tells me it is not obvious at all. I think the complexity of information to be consumed and produced is growing steadily. I wonder how absurd the waste of time and energy must get before the common awareness of XML deepens. Object orientation was invented (I think) in 1967. It became widely known more than 20 years later. This shows that it may be difficult to guess.. With kind regards, Hans-Juergen Rennau ----- Urspr?ngliche Mail ---- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 11:17:05 -0700 From: Daniela Florescu Subject: Re: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community To: Adam Retter Cc: talk@x-query.com, Marcus Clemens Message-ID: <309E3D7D-E546-4022-B166-BDB956B0AB25@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes I got several private answers to this question, all with the same comment: in all cases people looked for XQuery developers and cannot find any. Unfortunately XQuery will remain a niche language if this situation persists. How did other languages/communities solve this kind of growing pain ? Any suggestions ? Thanks !! Dana ************************************ From dflorescu at mac.com Mon Aug 31 09:58:34 2009 From: dflorescu at mac.com (Daniela Florescu) Date: Mon Aug 31 08:52:20 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: <238672.26663.qm@web27104.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <200908261828.n7QISsCq032486@jhunter.x-query.com> <238672.26663.qm@web27104.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7E20E567-FFAA-4C9E-81C1-59808F294260@mac.com> > a widespread lack of a _deep_ understanding of XML. Hans-Juergen, Yes, you are right. There is a deep misunderstanding in IT of our core message about the role of XML in the new architectures. XML is not syntax, it can/should be the primary way of modeling data. XQuery is not a query language (oh well), but a full blown (declarative) data processing language. However, if the world misunderstands it, it is hardly the world's fault. It is that we do not express this message in a clear, concise and convincing enough manner -- and probably not in the right places, either. I hope we don't have to wait 20 years for the message to be heard.... Best regards Dana > The vast majority of developers (and architects?) view XML > essentially as a portable encoding. In other words: they look at XML > at the lexical level, and they are not aware of the fact that the > XDM constitutes a global, uniform information model, composed of a > handful of concepts (sequence and item, six kinds of nodes, atomic > types). They do not suspect that URIs and the XPath language create > an information space in which any application is embedded and which > it can ignore or use. They have not grasped the concept of an > expression language whose values are information entities (that is, > instances of that information model). So they are not aware of a new > way of thought which strives to simplify things by designing > information processing steps - consuming input > information, emitting output information. The very concept of such > steps is not alive in their imagination; accordingly, they show no > interest in information processing languages (XSLT, XQuery, XProc). > > Perhaps the heart of the problem lies at the question how to > integrate this new, information oriented view into object > orientation. The latter, of course, remains _the_ paradigm, the > former can only be a complement. It cannot replace object > orientation, but it should and will modify how it is applied: it > should influence the main abstractions governing a system design. > Example: if you have to process external messages coming from > different partners, having similar information content but different > schemas, the obvious approach is to design an internal format, write > software covering the functionality by processing/producing internal > messages, and transform messages between external and internal > format. To get the transformations done, all one has to do is write > one class, which is configured by an XML file mapping format pairs > to the names of stylesheets and or queries. I said "obvious", but > experience tells me it is not obvious at all. > > I think the complexity of information to be consumed and produced is > growing steadily. I wonder how absurd the waste of time and energy > must get before the common awareness of XML deepens. Object > orientation was invented (I think) in 1967. It became widely known > more than 20 years later. This shows that it may be difficult to > guess.. > > With kind regards, > Hans-Juergen Rennau > > > > ----- Urspr?ngliche Mail ---- > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 11:17:05 -0700 > From: Daniela Florescu > Subject: Re: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community > To: Adam Retter > Cc: talk@x-query.com, Marcus Clemens > Message-ID: <309E3D7D-E546-4022-B166-BDB956B0AB25@mac.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes > > I got several private answers to this question, all with the same > comment: > in all cases people looked for XQuery developers and cannot find any. > > Unfortunately XQuery will remain a niche language if this situation > persists. > > How did other languages/communities solve this kind of growing pain ? > > Any suggestions ? > > Thanks !! > Dana > > > ************************************ > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > talk@x-query.com > http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk From int19h at gmail.com Mon Aug 31 11:39:11 2009 From: int19h at gmail.com (Pavel Minaev) Date: Mon Aug 31 10:31:29 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] Tuple types Message-ID: I can't find the link now, but I recall seeing some mentions of a possibility of introducing some form of tuple type (in a sense of an aggregate of arbitrary-typed values - including sequences) in XQuery 1.1, specifically to tackle the multiple-return-values and sequences-of-sequences problems. Are there any recent developments on the subject? I don't see anything like this in the most recent draft, but then higher-order functions aren't there either, and yet, judging by their presence in Saxon 9.2, they are well-shaped by now. If this isn't going to make it into 1.1, are there any other new features that I might have missed that would make it possible, for example, for a function to return two sequences? From mlu at as-guides.com Mon Aug 31 20:55:03 2009 From: mlu at as-guides.com (Michael Ludwig) Date: Mon Aug 31 10:46:52 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: <7E20E567-FFAA-4C9E-81C1-59808F294260@mac.com> References: <200908261828.n7QISsCq032486@jhunter.x-query.com> <238672.26663.qm@web27104.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <7E20E567-FFAA-4C9E-81C1-59808F294260@mac.com> Message-ID: <4A9C0E77.5010400@as-guides.com> Daniela Florescu schrieb: >> a widespread lack of a _deep_ understanding of XML. > > Hans-Juergen, > > Yes, you are right. There is a deep misunderstanding in IT of our > core message about the role of XML in the new architectures. What is that core message? (If it is not what I'm going to write below.) > XML is not syntax, it can/should be the primary way of modeling data. To XSLT and XQuery, XML is the XPath Data Model, which - I think - could exist quite merrily without a serialization format. To the Programming World, XML is the angle-bracket serialization format. I've heard XML experts say that the Programming World does not like angle brackets. (I don't know if this is true, but I've seen a lot of editors that hide the angle brackets.) I think that some people do not like the verboseness of the XML serialization format. XML, which isn't SGML, cannot change its serialization format without major disruptions. The XPath Data Model seems to have an alternative serialization format in XQuery: element bla { attribute blub { ... } }. But instead of mucking about with the serialization format, wouldn't it be more clever to market XQuery and XSLT as Tree Processing Languages? (Being very careful, bien entendu, not to come dangerously close to deforestation operations in order not to scare away the environmentalists.) Trees enjoy a pretty good reputation. Much better than angle brackets! > XQuery is not a query language (oh well), but a full blown > (declarative) data processing language. Well, but it typically lives where there is XML data, and it is typically used to query that data. It looks very well integrated to me. Isn't this a big plus? -- Michael Ludwig From hrennau at yahoo.de Mon Aug 31 15:37:38 2009 From: hrennau at yahoo.de (Hans-Juergen Rennau) Date: Mon Aug 31 14:32:29 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: <200908311900.n7VJ03Cq010468@jhunter.x-query.com> References: <200908311900.n7VJ03Cq010468@jhunter.x-query.com> Message-ID: <972615.14216.qm@web27108.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Hello Michael, of course you are right in that XSLT and XQuery are built on the XDM, not on XML as a serialization format, and you are right in that the XDM can be completely separated from the serialization format. But I prefer to view XML and the XDM as one organic whole, and exactly this is what I meant by the term "deep understanding": an understanding covering three _levels_ of XML: level #1: the lexical; level #2: the inforset (= structural model totally unconcerned with aspects of processing); level #3: the XDM extending the infoset in order to embrace the reality of processing = a global information model which preserves the structural achievements of the infoset and embeds it into a stunningly flexible definition of information value. Each level evolved from the previous one, I think, was it not so, historically? This evolution is a wonderful achievement, and I am emphatically against "marketing" XQuery and XSLT as tree processing languages, as if you could come along with some tree and get it processed. What should be done is rather: encourage people to get familiar with the new reality which XML (via XDM) constitutes: a global information model of stunning power and flexibility, enabling XPath, XSLT, XQuery and what is to come. A poet (Joseph Brodsky) once wrote: it is not so that the poets should adopt the language of the masses; common people should adopt the language of literature. In the realm of IT, XDM/XPath/XSLT/XQuery are like literature, and I would not sell them for something else. With kind regards, Hans-Juergen ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 19:55:03 +0200 From: Michael Ludwig Subject: Re: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community To: talk@x-query.com Message-ID: <4A9C0E77.5010400@as-guides.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Daniela Florescu schrieb: >> a widespread lack of a _deep_ understanding of XML. > > Hans-Juergen, > > Yes, you are right. There is a deep misunderstanding in IT of our > core message about the role of XML in the new architectures. What is that core message? (If it is not what I'm going to write below.) > XML is not syntax, it can/should be the primary way of modeling data. To XSLT and XQuery, XML is the XPath Data Model, which - I think - could exist quite merrily without a serialization format. To the Programming World, XML is the angle-bracket serialization format. I've heard XML experts say that the Programming World does not like angle brackets. (I don't know if this is true, but I've seen a lot of editors that hide the angle brackets.) I think that some people do not like the verboseness of the XML serialization format. XML, which isn't SGML, cannot change its serialization format without major disruptions. The XPath Data Model seems to have an alternative serialization format in XQuery: element bla { attribute blub { ... } }. But instead of mucking about with the serialization format, wouldn't it be more clever to market XQuery and XSLT as Tree Processing Languages? (Being very careful, bien entendu, not to come dangerously close to deforestation operations in order not to scare away the environmentalists.) Trees enjoy a pretty good reputation. Much better than angle brackets! > XQuery is not a query language (oh well), but a full blown > (declarative) data processing language. Well, but it typically lives where there is XML data, and it is typically used to query that data. It looks very well integrated to me. Isn't this a big plus? -- Michael Ludwig ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ talk@x-query.com http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk End of talk Digest, Vol 76, Issue 21 ************************************ From hrennau at yahoo.de Mon Aug 31 16:19:40 2009 From: hrennau at yahoo.de (Hans-Juergen Rennau) Date: Mon Aug 31 15:05:21 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: <7E20E567-FFAA-4C9E-81C1-59808F294260@mac.com> References: <200908261828.n7QISsCq032486@jhunter.x-query.com> <238672.26663.qm@web27104.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <7E20E567-FFAA-4C9E-81C1-59808F294260@mac.com> Message-ID: <751372.77346.qm@web27104.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Daniela, the term you use - data processing language - is exactly the term I arrived at when trying to label what XQuery is. And indeed, "XQuery" is a terrible misnomer which may be much more guilty of the present niche existence than one suspects. This is because anyone having used some XPath expressions feels (rightly!) that he essentially has already "queried" the data, so why bother with some _further_ query language when the one at hand does the job? And it is the whole gamut of data integration, transformation, tailoring, evaluation, reporting, code generation... that is eclipsed by the ridiculous term "query". Only a few days ago it occurred to me that "information processing language" may be better than "data processing language", because it suggests the concept of information as something formally defined and to be submitted to operations in turn formally defined as information processing operations. And this is the point at the same time so exciting and so hard to communicate: that the time has arrived for something unprecedented: an information processing language - a term that would not make any sense without a unifying information model, but _now_, at last, makes sense. As to whose fault it is that understanding is so scarce, I think you are right and wrong at the same time. Yes - why have some essential things not more clearly and more audibly been stated? But on the other hand - why do developers and architects so stubbornly refuse just to _listen_ ? With kind regards, Hans-Juergen ----- Urspr?ngliche Mail ---- Von: Daniela Florescu An: Hans-Juergen Rennau CC: talk@x-query.com Gesendet: Montag, den 31. August 2009, 08:58:34 Uhr Betreff: Re: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community > a widespread lack of a _deep_ understanding of XML. Hans-Juergen, Yes, you are right. There is a deep misunderstanding in IT of our core message about the role of XML in the new architectures. XML is not syntax, it can/should be the primary way of modeling data. XQuery is not a query language (oh well), but a full blown (declarative) data processing language. However, if the world misunderstands it, it is hardly the world's fault. It is that we do not express this message in a clear, concise and convincing enough manner -- and probably not in the right places, either. I hope we don't have to wait 20 years for the message to be heard.... Best regards Dana From steve at asanderson.com Mon Aug 31 19:21:35 2009 From: steve at asanderson.com (A. Steven Anderson) Date: Mon Aug 31 15:07:00 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: <972615.14216.qm@web27108.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <200908311900.n7VJ03Cq010468@jhunter.x-query.com> <972615.14216.qm@web27108.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: With all due respect, one major reason why XML/XQuery/XSLT isn't as popular as many other programming languages has less to do with ignorance of it's capabilities and more to do with it's 1) lack of performance, 2) overall information bloat, and 3) unintuitive language constructs. Sure disk space is cheap and bandwidth is getting more *broad* every day, and "many elegant designs have been sacrificed for the sake of performance...yada...yada...yada...", but at the end of the day, the same data that can be represented in XML can be represented a lot more concise in other platform-independent formats. I won't even get into the whole information density argument which can be Googled. It's been my experience (19+ years of professional software development) that there is not a one-size-fits-all solution. i.e. my tool belt has more than just a hammer. ;-) On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 5:37 PM, Hans-Juergen Rennau wrote: > Hello Michael, > > of course you are right in that XSLT and XQuery are built on the XDM, not > on XML as a serialization format, and you are right in that the XDM can be > completely separated from the serialization format. But I prefer to view XML > and the XDM as one organic whole, and exactly this is what I meant by the > term "deep understanding": an understanding covering three _levels_ of XML: > level #1: the lexical; level #2: the inforset (= structural model totally > unconcerned with aspects of processing); level #3: the XDM extending the > infoset in order to embrace the reality of processing = a global information > model which preserves the structural achievements of the infoset and embeds > it into a stunningly flexible definition of information value. Each level > evolved from the previous one, I think, was it not so, historically? > > This evolution is a wonderful achievement, and I am emphatically against > "marketing" XQuery and XSLT as tree processing languages, as if you could > come along with some tree and get it processed. What should be done is > rather: encourage people to get familiar with the new reality which XML (via > XDM) constitutes: a global information model of stunning power and > flexibility, enabling XPath, XSLT, XQuery and what is to come. > > A poet (Joseph Brodsky) once wrote: it is not so that the poets should > adopt the language of the masses; common people should adopt the language of > literature. In the realm of IT, XDM/XPath/XSLT/XQuery are like literature, > and I would not sell them for something else. > -- A. Steven Anderson Independent Consultant -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://x-query.com/pipermail/talk/attachments/20090831/23f3f12b/attachment.htm From dflorescu at mac.com Mon Aug 31 16:39:08 2009 From: dflorescu at mac.com (Daniela Florescu) Date: Mon Aug 31 15:24:05 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: <751372.77346.qm@web27104.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <200908261828.n7QISsCq032486@jhunter.x-query.com> <238672.26663.qm@web27104.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <7E20E567-FFAA-4C9E-81C1-59808F294260@mac.com> <751372.77346.qm@web27104.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3F5D272C-12EB-43D4-8D43-0AEC4A0A6643@mac.com> > > Only a few days ago it occurred to me that "information processing > language" may be better than "data processing language", Thanks for saying this. As soon as I hit the send button I remembered that I promised myself never use "data" in connection to XML, but "information". (I am a database person, certain habits are hard to break....) But yes, I would think too that XQuery is a declarative information processing language. > why do developers and architects so stubbornly refuse just to > _listen_ ? Because we don't talk to them (a) enough and (b) with a message that they understand. I remember years ago, when I was really frustrated that architects would not _listen_ that Xquery was this wonderful and useful thing, I asked advice from Jim Gray. He was always ready to listen and help, and, even though he was too much of a believer in SQL and schemas to start embracing XQuery, he gave me the following advice. If you want people to listen then (a) write articles and give talks, (b) write software that works, (c) make interesting demos. Then repeat, and don't loose patience. I think that at this point we have around XQuery lots of software that does work: databases, in memory processors, etc. What we can do is write more articles, give more talks (Web 2.0, eGov 2.0 anyone ?), and make more interesting demos. About demos: I am still surprised that nobody is trying XQuery's mashup strength on the examples on http://www.programmableweb.com/. Wonderful site, BTW. Or that noone is using XQuery on the http://www.data.gov/ site and win the price of the best eGovernment application.... Best regards Dana > > With kind regards, > Hans-Juergen > > > > > > > ----- Urspr?ngliche Mail ---- > Von: Daniela Florescu > An: Hans-Juergen Rennau > CC: talk@x-query.com > Gesendet: Montag, den 31. August 2009, 08:58:34 Uhr > Betreff: Re: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community > >> a widespread lack of a _deep_ understanding of XML. > > Hans-Juergen, > > Yes, you are right. There is a deep misunderstanding in IT of our > core message > about the role of XML in the new architectures. XML is not syntax, > it can/should be > the primary way of modeling data. XQuery is not a query language (oh > well), but a > full blown (declarative) data processing language. > > However, if the world misunderstands it, it is hardly the world's > fault. > > It is that we do not express this message in a clear, concise and > convincing enough > manner -- and probably not in the right places, either. > > I hope we don't have to wait 20 years for the message to be heard.... > > Best regards > Dana > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > talk@x-query.com > http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://x-query.com/pipermail/talk/attachments/20090831/1bb02bfd/attachment.htm From hrennau at yahoo.de Mon Aug 31 16:52:55 2009 From: hrennau at yahoo.de (Hans-Juergen Rennau) Date: Mon Aug 31 15:37:34 2009 Subject: AW: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: References: <200908311900.n7VJ03Cq010468@jhunter.x-query.com> <972615.14216.qm@web27108.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <16740.94399.qm@web27103.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Yes, of course there are domains where XML cannot be afforded due to performance and data volume issues. I suggest that we take this for granted, I assure you there is no "one-size-fits-all" ambition - let us now consider the domains where those issues do not play a primary role. Your hints interest me very much: you speak of other, more concise and platform-independent formats. So they may be regarded as siblings of XML as a serialization format - siblings of level #1 XML, so to speak. Please tell me - are they also embedded into an information model which might be compared with level #3 XML - the XDM - supporting hierarchy, order and processing? An information model that does, or in principle could, support a pure expression language like XQuery? With kind regards, Hans-Juergen Rennau ________________________________ Von: A. Steven Anderson An: Hans-Juergen Rennau CC: mlu@as-guides.com; talk@x-query.com; dflorescu@mac.com Gesendet: Montag, den 31. August 2009, 15:21:35 Uhr Betreff: Re: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community With all due respect, one major reason why XML/XQuery/XSLT isn't as popular as many other programming languages has less to do with ignorance of it's capabilities and more to do with it's 1) lack of performance, 2) overall information bloat, and 3) unintuitive language constructs. Sure disk space is cheap and bandwidth is getting more *broad* every day, and "many elegant designs have been sacrificed for the sake of performance...yada...yada...yada...", but at the end of the day, the same data that can be represented in XML can be represented a lot more concise in other platform-independent formats. I won't even get into the whole information density argument which can be Googled. It's been my experience (19+ years of professional software development) that there is not a one-size-fits-all solution. i.e. my tool belt has more than just a hammer. ;-) -- A. Steven Anderson Independent Consultant -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://x-query.com/pipermail/talk/attachments/20090831/6ea3f8a3/attachment-0001.htm From rob at koberg.com Mon Aug 31 17:32:46 2009 From: rob at koberg.com (Robert Koberg) Date: Mon Aug 31 16:16:28 2009 Subject: [xquery-talk] size of XQuery developer community In-Reply-To: <3F5D272C-12EB-43D4-8D43-0AEC4A0A6643@mac.com> References: <200908261828.n7QISsCq032486@jhunter.x-query.com> <238672.26663.qm@web27104.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <7E20E567-FFAA-4C9E-81C1-59808F294260@mac.com> <751372.77346.qm@web27104.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <3F5D272C-12EB-43D4-8D43-0AEC4A0A6643@mac.com> Message-ID: <28E15204-9507-4F3E-9C11-DAA2BFB056A3@koberg.com> > I remember years ago, when I was really frustrated that architects > would not _listen_ that Xquery > was this wonderful and useful thing, I asked advice from Jim Gray. > He was always ready to listen and help, > and, even though he was too much of a believer in SQL and schemas to > start embracing XQuery, he gave me > the following advice. > > If you want people to listen then (a) write articles and give talks, > (b) write software that works, > (c) make interesting demos. Then repeat, and don't loose patience. > > I think that at this point we have around XQuery lots of software > that does work: databases, in memory > processors, etc. > > What we can do is write more articles, give more talks (Web 2.0, > eGov 2.0 anyone ?), and make more > interesting demos. > > About demos: I am still surprised that nobody is trying XQuery's > mashup strength on the examples > on http://www.programmableweb.com/. Wonderful site, BTW. I just don't think a language that feels it is acceptable for more than a few typeswitch cases is worthwhile (OK, I have my helmet on). XQuery has the simplicity to be able to run on an XML DB. That is it's main selling point. XSL can do much better if it could run on an XML DB. As for XQuery as a web application or scripting language, I think there are better. > > Or that noone is using XQuery on the http://www.data.gov/ site and > win the price of the best eGovernment application.... Or, why isn't the data transparent so we can see what we pay for?