From mlu at as-guides.com  Wed Jun  3 12:18:25 2009
From: mlu at as-guides.com (Michael Ludwig)
Date: Wed Jun  3 01:40:12 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] Define no-overlaps constraint based on two integers
	(range index?)
Message-ID: <4A263FE1.4040903@as-guides.com>

I have a lot of documents in an XML database (Oracle Berkeley DB XML),
which look like this:

   <doc start="100123" end="100456">Huhu</doc>

Do you see any possibility to define an index on a database (on *any*
database) such that no two documents with an overlapping period from
@start to @end can exist? Both @start and @end are integers. Given the
above document, no document may start or end in the interval between
100123 and 100456.

I know this problem is rather general, unrelated to XQuery, and not
even specific to DBXML, of which I've already consulted the forum:

http://forums.oracle.com/forums/message.jspa?messageID=3482507

I also know this problem could have an XQuery solution coded at the
application level, based on equality indices on @start and @end.

Pointers to better places to ask this are as welcome as hints to a
solution. I'm not sure what this kind of index is called; I thought of
"contiguity index", or "range index", or "interval index", but can't
find much in Google. Does anyone know?

Michael Ludwig
From mike at saxonica.com  Wed Jun  3 12:26:01 2009
From: mike at saxonica.com (Michael Kay)
Date: Wed Jun  3 02:45:47 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] Define no-overlaps constraint based on two
	integers(range index?)
In-Reply-To: <4A263FE1.4040903@as-guides.com>
References: <4A263FE1.4040903@as-guides.com>
Message-ID: <FD877B69C0AD4A83B2A8A1D3CB24BF2E@Sealion>


I think you'll be extraordinarily lucky to find a product that does this for
you automatically, and efficiently. However it's easy enough to check the
condition by hand, with reasonable efficiency so long as you can access
everything in the collection efficiently:

let $ranges :=
  for $doc in collection(...) return
    <range start="{$doc/doc/@start}" end="{$doc/doc/@end}"/>
let $sortedRanges :=
  <ranges>{
    for $range in $ranges order by xs:integer($range/@start) return $range
  }</ranges>
let $valid := empty($sortedRanges/range[xs:integer(@start) le
xs:integer(preceding-sibling::range/@end)])
return $valid
  
If scanning the collection is too expensive, then you can maintain a
document "by hand" that contains the ranges redundantly.

Regards,

Michael Kay
http://www.saxonica.com/
http://twitter.com/michaelhkay  
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: talk-bounces@x-query.com 
> [mailto:talk-bounces@x-query.com] On Behalf Of Michael Ludwig
> Sent: 03 June 2009 10:18
> To: talk@x-query.com
> Subject: [xquery-talk] Define no-overlaps constraint based on 
> two integers(range index?)
> 
> I have a lot of documents in an XML database (Oracle Berkeley 
> DB XML), which look like this:
> 
>    <doc start="100123" end="100456">Huhu</doc>
> 
> Do you see any possibility to define an index on a database (on *any*
> database) such that no two documents with an overlapping 
> period from @start to @end can exist? Both @start and @end 
> are integers. Given the above document, no document may start 
> or end in the interval between
> 100123 and 100456.
> 
> I know this problem is rather general, unrelated to XQuery, 
> and not even specific to DBXML, of which I've already 
> consulted the forum:
> 
> http://forums.oracle.com/forums/message.jspa?messageID=3482507
> 
> I also know this problem could have an XQuery solution coded 
> at the application level, based on equality indices on @start 
> and @end.
> 
> Pointers to better places to ask this are as welcome as hints 
> to a solution. I'm not sure what this kind of index is 
> called; I thought of "contiguity index", or "range index", or 
> "interval index", but can't find much in Google. Does anyone know?
> 
> Michael Ludwig
> _______________________________________________
> talk@x-query.com
> http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk

From adam.retter at googlemail.com  Wed Jun  3 12:27:21 2009
From: adam.retter at googlemail.com (Adam Retter)
Date: Wed Jun  3 02:46:58 2009
Subject: OT - Re: [xquery-talk] Define no-overlaps constraint based on two 
	integers (range index?)
Message-ID: <ab70ed440906030327m147208afs7c107ce39cac1b8@mail.gmail.com>

As you broaden your question to ask about "*any* database", I can give
you a brief overview of how this could be done in the eXist XML Native
Database.

The functionality to restrict the ability to store a document based on
criteria in other documents (in this case  start and end value
attributes) could be defined in a Trigger, this Trigger could be
implemented in either XQuery or Java.

If the Trigger was written in XQuery you could take advantage of
configurable indexes in eXist to speed up your search of 'overlapping
documents', to do so you would create a range indexes on both the
start and end attributes.

If you wish to further discuss the functionality available in eXist to
achieve this, may I suggest that the eXist mailing list would be
better suited.


Cheers Adam.


2009/6/3 Michael Ludwig <mlu@as-guides.com>:
> I have a lot of documents in an XML database (Oracle Berkeley DB XML),
> which look like this:
>
> ?<doc start="100123" end="100456">Huhu</doc>
>
> Do you see any possibility to define an index on a database (on *any*
> database) such that no two documents with an overlapping period from
> @start to @end can exist? Both @start and @end are integers. Given the
> above document, no document may start or end in the interval between
> 100123 and 100456.
>
> I know this problem is rather general, unrelated to XQuery, and not
> even specific to DBXML, of which I've already consulted the forum:
>
> http://forums.oracle.com/forums/message.jspa?messageID=3482507
>
> I also know this problem could have an XQuery solution coded at the
> application level, based on equality indices on @start and @end.
>
> Pointers to better places to ask this are as welcome as hints to a
> solution. I'm not sure what this kind of index is called; I thought of
> "contiguity index", or "range index", or "interval index", but can't
> find much in Google. Does anyone know?
>
> Michael Ludwig
> _______________________________________________
> talk@x-query.com
> http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk
>



-- 
Adam Retter

From mlu at as-guides.com  Wed Jun  3 15:47:30 2009
From: mlu at as-guides.com (Michael Ludwig)
Date: Wed Jun  3 05:47:52 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] Define no-overlaps constraint based on two integers
	(range index?)
In-Reply-To: <4A263FE1.4040903@as-guides.com>
References: <4A263FE1.4040903@as-guides.com>
Message-ID: <4A2670E2.8040006@as-guides.com>

Michael and Adam,

thanks for your answers.

Michael Ludwig schrieb:
> I'm not sure what this kind of index is called; I thought of
> "contiguity index", or "range index", or "interval index", but
> can't find much in Google.

In an SQL server, it's a CHECK clause plus two indices on the INTEGER
columns, and that's about what it translates to in an XQuery server.
Maybe this is too simple to merit a name of its own.

Michael Ludwig
From derstubbi at gmx.de  Mon Jun  8 18:08:40 2009
From: derstubbi at gmx.de (derstubbi@gmx.de)
Date: Mon Jun  8 08:08:52 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] XQuery and databases - XQuery 2.0
In-Reply-To: <4A2670E2.8040006@as-guides.com>
References: <4A263FE1.4040903@as-guides.com> <4A2670E2.8040006@as-guides.com>
Message-ID: <20090608150840.308680@gmx.net>

Hi,
I have several questions concerning XQuery :

1)
how can I use a xml-file stored in a database ?
I tried with eXist but i did not work:

let $path :='http://localhost:8080/exist/rest/db/my.xml'
...doc(path )...

-> FileNotFoundException: http://localhost:8080/exist/rest/db/Abteilung_DocIDinRepo.xml
(I tried several other paths and combinations)

When I use the path in my browser, I can see the file.
What am I doing wrong ?



2)Is there (or will there be) possibility to make a database-connection just with XQuery ? So that I can give host, port, login, passwort, etc and XQuery is able to connect to the database ?
Am I correct, that at the moment it is only possible if you use XQuery executed from java (or an other programming language, that is able to create a connection) ? 


3)
When will there be a new/newer specification of XQuery (->XQuery 2.0)
Is it possible to get an overview of the planed changes and new possibilities ?

Greetings,
ND
-- 
GMX FreeDSL mit DSL 6.000 Flatrate und Telefonanschluss nur 17,95 Euro/mtl.!
http://dslspecial.gmx.de/freedsl-aktionspreis/?ac=OM.AD.PD003K11308T4569a
From houghtoa at oclc.org  Mon Jun  8 12:15:06 2009
From: houghtoa at oclc.org (Houghton,Andrew)
Date: Mon Jun  8 08:14:21 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] XQuery and databases - XQuery 2.0
In-Reply-To: <20090608150840.308680@gmx.net>
References: <4A263FE1.4040903@as-guides.com> <4A2670E2.8040006@as-guides.com>
	<20090608150840.308680@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <6548F17059905B48B2A6F28CE3692BAA03C6F546@OAEXCH4SERVER.oa.oclc.org>

> From: talk-bounces@x-query.com [mailto:talk-bounces@x-query.com] On
> Behalf Of derstubbi@gmx.de
> Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 11:09 AM
> To: talk@x-query.com
> Subject: [xquery-talk] XQuery and databases - XQuery 2.0
> 
> Hi,
> I have several questions concerning XQuery :
> 
> 1)
> how can I use a xml-file stored in a database ?
> I tried with eXist but i did not work:
> 
> let $path :='http://localhost:8080/exist/rest/db/my.xml'
> ...doc(path )...
>
> -> FileNotFoundException:
> http://localhost:8080/exist/rest/db/Abteilung_DocIDinRepo.xml
> (I tried several other paths and combinations)
> 
> When I use the path in my browser, I can see the file.
> What am I doing wrong ?

Did you try ...doc($path)...


Andy.


From wolfgang at exist-db.org  Mon Jun  8 18:29:28 2009
From: wolfgang at exist-db.org (Wolfgang)
Date: Mon Jun  8 08:28:37 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] XQuery and databases - XQuery 2.0
In-Reply-To: <20090608150840.308680@gmx.net>
References: <4A263FE1.4040903@as-guides.com> <4A2670E2.8040006@as-guides.com>
	<20090608150840.308680@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <4A2D2E58.9070401@exist-db.org>

Hi,

> how can I use a xml-file stored in a database ?
> I tried with eXist but i did not work:

please ask product specific questions on the corresponding mailing 
lists. How you access a stored document depends on the database product 
you use. There's no general answer to this.

> let $path :='http://localhost:8080/exist/rest/db/my.xml'
> ...doc(path )...
> 
> -> FileNotFoundException: http://localhost:8080/exist/rest/db/Abteilung_DocIDinRepo.xml
> (I tried several other paths and combinations)

Just use a relative URI: doc("/db/my.xml"). The xquery is running on the 
server. It knows and has access to all documents stored there. There's 
no need to use an HTTP URI here.

> 2)Is there (or will there be) possibility to make a database-connection just with XQuery ? So that I can give host, port, login, passwort, etc and XQuery is able to connect to the database ?
> Am I correct, that at the moment it is only possible if you use XQuery executed from java (or an other programming language, that is able to create a connection) ? 

Mmmmh, the query engine is running on top of the database, so it has a 
connection to that server. I guess what you are asking for is a way to 
access resources stored on a different server than the one which is 
running the query? You can retrieve external documents via an HTTP URL, 
just as you tried above. However, eXist will retrieve those documents 
and parse them locally. You loose the benefits of indexes and the like. 
If you are asking for distributed search: we (eXist) do not provide such 
a feature right now, though some work is underway. You may have a look 
at some of the commercial xmldbs if you need this.

Wolfgang
From mike at saxonica.com  Mon Jun  8 18:11:38 2009
From: mike at saxonica.com (Michael Kay)
Date: Mon Jun  8 09:09:49 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] XQuery and databases - XQuery 2.0
In-Reply-To: <4A2D2E58.9070401@exist-db.org>
References: <4A263FE1.4040903@as-guides.com>
	<4A2670E2.8040006@as-guides.com><20090608150840.308680@gmx.net>
	<4A2D2E58.9070401@exist-db.org>
Message-ID: <A473D9CF4AE849E399720B4E4F2086ED@Sealion>

> 
> > let $path :='http://localhost:8080/exist/rest/db/my.xml'
> > ...doc(path )...
> > 
> > -> FileNotFoundException: 
> > -> http://localhost:8080/exist/rest/db/Abteilung_DocIDinRepo.xml
> > (I tried several other paths and combinations)
> 
> Just use a relative URI: doc("/db/my.xml"). The xquery is 
> running on the server. It knows and has access to all 
> documents stored there. There's no need to use an HTTP URI here.
> 

Or if you really do want eXist simply to return the whole document, and then
to run client-side queries against the returned document, you could use a
free-standing (non-database) query processor like Saxon on the client side.
Sometimes if you want to do intensive processing that will use most of the
data in the document, and if you know exactly what document you want to
process, then it can make sense to do this processing on the client side.

Regards,

Michael Kay
http://www.saxonica.com/
http://twitter.com/michaelhkay 


From derstubbi at gmx.de  Mon Jun  8 19:46:37 2009
From: derstubbi at gmx.de (hans uwe)
Date: Mon Jun  8 09:41:45 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] XQuery and databases - XQuery 2.0
In-Reply-To: <6548F17059905B48B2A6F28CE3692BAA03C6F546@OAEXCH4SERVER.oa.oclc.org>
References: <4A263FE1.4040903@as-guides.com> <4A2670E2.8040006@as-guides.com>
	<20090608150840.308680@gmx.net>
	<6548F17059905B48B2A6F28CE3692BAA03C6F546@OAEXCH4SERVER.oa.oclc.org>
Message-ID: <20090608164637.308710@gmx.net>

Of course ;)
(that was a error due to copy and paste into the email ...

-------- Original-Nachricht --------
> Datum: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:15:06 -0400
> Von: "Houghton,Andrew" <houghtoa@oclc.org>
> An: derstubbi@gmx.de, talk@x-query.com
> Betreff: RE: [xquery-talk] XQuery and databases - XQuery 2.0

> > From: talk-bounces@x-query.com [mailto:talk-bounces@x-query.com] On
> > Behalf Of derstubbi@gmx.de
> > Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 11:09 AM
> > To: talk@x-query.com
> > Subject: [xquery-talk] XQuery and databases - XQuery 2.0
> > 
> > Hi,
> > I have several questions concerning XQuery :
> > 
> > 1)
> > how can I use a xml-file stored in a database ?
> > I tried with eXist but i did not work:
> > 
> > let $path :='http://localhost:8080/exist/rest/db/my.xml'
> > ...doc(path )...
> >
> > -> FileNotFoundException:
> > http://localhost:8080/exist/rest/db/Abteilung_DocIDinRepo.xml
> > (I tried several other paths and combinations)
> > 
> > When I use the path in my browser, I can see the file.
> > What am I doing wrong ?
> 
> Did you try ...doc($path)...
> 
> 
> Andy.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> talk@x-query.com
> http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk

-- 
GRATIS f?r alle GMX-Mitglieder: Die maxdome Movie-FLAT!
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From derstubbi at gmx.de  Mon Jun  8 20:25:20 2009
From: derstubbi at gmx.de (derstubbi@gmx.de)
Date: Mon Jun  8 10:20:25 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] XQuery and databases - XQuery 2.0
In-Reply-To: <A473D9CF4AE849E399720B4E4F2086ED@Sealion>
References: <4A263FE1.4040903@as-guides.com>
	<4A2670E2.8040006@as-guides.com><20090608150840.308680@gmx.net>
	<4A2D2E58.9070401@exist-db.org>
	<A473D9CF4AE849E399720B4E4F2086ED@Sealion>
Message-ID: <20090608172520.308710@gmx.net>


> > Just use a relative URI: doc("/db/my.xml"). The xquery is 
> > running on the server. It knows and has access to all 
> > documents stored there. There's no need to use an HTTP URI here.

Hello,
I am not running the query in the server. I use xquery "standalone", triggered with java or VB.net using saxon.



> Or if you really do want eXist simply to return the whole document, and
> then
> to run client-side queries against the returned document, you could use a
> free-standing (non-database) query processor like Saxon on the client
> side.
> Sometimes if you want to do intensive processing that will use most of the
> data in the document, and if you know exactly what document you want to
> process, then it can make sense to do this processing on the client side.


Yes,I want to retrieve a whole document, even on a different server, and normally I get the full name.
If I want to retrieve more documents, I could use collections, right? (I have not used collections yet)

I am able to retrieve xml-documents from a repository, which runs on a tomcat-server. But in that case I need the id of the document (thats ok).
So I searched a way to get documents from a "normal" database, and at first I tried eXist.

Is there a way that you would prefer? Maybe something I didn't even think of !?!
-- 
GRATIS f?r alle GMX-Mitglieder: Die maxdome Movie-FLAT!
Jetzt freischalten unter http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/maxdome01
From wolfgang at exist-db.org  Mon Jun  8 20:46:05 2009
From: wolfgang at exist-db.org (Wolfgang)
Date: Mon Jun  8 10:41:12 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] XQuery and databases - XQuery 2.0
In-Reply-To: <20090608172520.308710@gmx.net>
References: <4A263FE1.4040903@as-guides.com>	<4A2670E2.8040006@as-guides.com><20090608150840.308680@gmx.net>	<4A2D2E58.9070401@exist-db.org>
	<A473D9CF4AE849E399720B4E4F2086ED@Sealion>
	<20090608172520.308710@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <4A2D4E5D.6080400@exist-db.org>

> I am not running the query in the server. I use xquery "standalone", triggered with java or VB.net using saxon.

Sure, you can use saxon on the client to query a document stored in 
eXist. As Michael already said, this makes sense in some cases. However, 
to avoid misunderstandings: please note that your query will not benefit 
from any database features this way and you will be using eXist as a 
plain container. To benefit from indexes, you have to use eXist's own 
query engine (I think this applies to all other xmldb's as well).

> Yes,I want to retrieve a whole document, even on a different server, and normally I get the full name.

Ok, your original approach should work then. Using saxon I can query a 
document stored in eXist with e.g.

doc("http://localhost:8080/exist/rest/db/examples.xml")//query

> If I want to retrieve more documents, I could use collections, right? (I have not used collections yet)

What constitutes a collection is implementation dependent. If you are 
using saxon on the client, you need to create a saxon collection.

Wolfgang
From Andy.K.Chang at aexp.com  Mon Jun  8 14:53:39 2009
From: Andy.K.Chang at aexp.com (Andy K Chang)
Date: Mon Jun  8 13:36:49 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] Andy K Chang is out of office
Message-ID: <OFD143A7E0.D7EE7B4E-ON072575CF.0072C6B7-072575CF.0072C6B7@aexp.com>


I will be out of the office starting  06/08/2009 and will not return until
06/09/2009.



American Express made the following annotations on Mon Jun 08 2009 14:55:35
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American Express a ajouté le commentaire suivant le Mon Jun 08 2009 14:55:35

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From derstubbi at gmx.de  Tue Jun  9 17:21:22 2009
From: derstubbi at gmx.de (derstubbi@gmx.de)
Date: Tue Jun  9 07:22:00 2009
Subject: Fwd: [xquery-talk] XQuery and databases - XQuery 2.0
In-Reply-To: <20090608150840.308680@gmx.net>
References: <4A263FE1.4040903@as-guides.com> <4A2670E2.8040006@as-guides.com>
	<20090608150840.308680@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <20090609142122.320210@gmx.net>

To pick up point 3)

I just read that the XQuery 1.1. specification exists (ok, it is "just" a working draft), but is not (really) used today. 
And I also read that there are "insufficient resources to continue development of the Static Typing feature".
What does that mean ?
Is there no more development for XQuery at all ?
What are/were the ideas for future XQuery ?


point 1)

I am still not able to run this :

let $path :=doc('http://localhost:8080/exist/rest/db/myConfig.xml')
return
<test>
{
$path
}
</test>

-> java.io.FileNotFoundException: http://localhost:8080/exist/rest/db/myConfig.xml

I run the XQuery with java/saxon. The file is imported into the eXist databse. It can be retrieved with using the path in my browser...
What is the mistake ?

thanking you in anticipation,
ND


-------- Original-Nachricht --------
Datum: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 17:08:40 +0200
Von: derstubbi@gmx.de
An: talk@x-query.com
Betreff: [xquery-talk] XQuery and databases - XQuery 2.0

Hi,
I have several questions concerning XQuery :

1)
how can I use a xml-file stored in a database ?
I tried with eXist but i did not work:

let $path :='http://localhost:8080/exist/rest/db/my.xml'
...doc(path )...

-> FileNotFoundException: http://localhost:8080/exist/rest/db/Abteilung_DocIDinRepo.xml
(I tried several other paths and combinations)

When I use the path in my browser, I can see the file.
What am I doing wrong ?



2)Is there (or will there be) possibility to make a database-connection just with XQuery ? So that I can give host, port, login, passwort, etc and XQuery is able to connect to the database ?
Am I correct, that at the moment it is only possible if you use XQuery executed from java (or an other programming language, that is able to create a connection) ? 


3)
When will there be a new/newer specification of XQuery (->XQuery 2.0)
Is it possible to get an overview of the planed changes and new possibilities ?

Greetings,
ND
-- 
GMX FreeDSL mit DSL 6.000 Flatrate und Telefonanschluss nur 17,95 Euro/mtl.!
http://dslspecial.gmx.de/freedsl-aktionspreis/?ac=OM.AD.PD003K11308T4569a
_______________________________________________
talk@x-query.com
http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk

-- 
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From wolfgang at exist-db.org  Tue Jun  9 17:32:10 2009
From: wolfgang at exist-db.org (Wolfgang Meier)
Date: Tue Jun  9 07:32:47 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] XQuery and databases - XQuery 2.0
In-Reply-To: <20090609142122.320210@gmx.net>
References: <4A263FE1.4040903@as-guides.com> <4A2670E2.8040006@as-guides.com>
	<20090608150840.308680@gmx.net> <20090609142122.320210@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <19f274050906090732p3323de4eg5948b2dae4581e18@mail.gmail.com>

> -> java.io.FileNotFoundException: http://localhost:8080/exist/rest/db/myConfig.xml

The query definitely works for me using saxon within oxygen as well as
on the command line. I guess there must be something wrong in the way
you are calling it.

Wolfgang
From john.snelson at oracle.com  Tue Jun  9 16:49:21 2009
From: john.snelson at oracle.com (John Snelson)
Date: Tue Jun  9 07:50:06 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] XQuery and databases - XQuery 2.0
In-Reply-To: <20090609142122.320210@gmx.net>
References: <4A263FE1.4040903@as-guides.com>
	<4A2670E2.8040006@as-guides.com>	<20090608150840.308680@gmx.net>
	<20090609142122.320210@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <4A2E7671.6040608@oracle.com>

derstubbi@gmx.de wrote:
> To pick up point 3)
> 
> I just read that the XQuery 1.1. specification exists (ok, it is "just" a working draft), but is not (really) used today. 
> And I also read that there are "insufficient resources to continue development of the Static Typing feature".
> What does that mean ?

There's a specification called "XQuery 1.0 and XPath 2.0 Formal 
Semantics" [1], which details the semantics of XQuery 1.0 with a more 
rigorous mathematical notation - this document may possibly be 
discontinued as the XQuery Working Group publishes the XQuery 1.1 range 
of specifications.

> Is there no more development for XQuery at all ?

Not at all - there's lots going on for XQuery 1.1.

> What are/were the ideas for future XQuery ?

You can read the XQuery 1.1 requirements document [2] to find out what 
the working group has been adding to XQuery. Some highlights (for me) 
include:

1) Higher order functions
2) Grouping and windowing
3) Try/catch

John

[1] http://www.w3.org/TR/xquery-semantics/
[2] http://www.w3.org/TR/xquery-11-requirements/

-- 
John Snelson, Oracle Corporation            http://snelson.org.uk/john
Berkeley DB XML:            http://oracle.com/database/berkeley-db/xml
XQilla:                                  http://xqilla.sourceforge.net
From mike at saxonica.com  Tue Jun  9 17:02:16 2009
From: mike at saxonica.com (Michael Kay)
Date: Tue Jun  9 08:02:55 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] XQuery and databases - XQuery 2.0
In-Reply-To: <20090609142122.320210@gmx.net>
References: <4A263FE1.4040903@as-guides.com>
	<4A2670E2.8040006@as-guides.com><20090608150840.308680@gmx.net>
	<20090609142122.320210@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <C6C6097C5C844750988AFA22E5D1CA92@Sealion>

> I just read that the XQuery 1.1. specification exists (ok, it 
> is "just" a working draft), but is not (really) used today.

Yes, it's still under development. Various vendors have implemented various
parts of it even though it is still a draft.
 
> And I also read that there are "insufficient resources to 
> continue development of the Static Typing feature".
> What does that mean ?

We stated in the status section of the current draft "The WG remains
concerned that there are insufficient resources to continue development of
the Static Typing feature". This was essentially a warning to the community:
come and help us with this feature, or we will have to drop it. I think it
is very likely that the decision to drop the feature will indeed be
confirmed. 

> Is there no more development for XQuery at all ?

No, the Static Typing Feature is an optional feature of the language, and
not many implementations provide it. If it is dropped, most users won't
notice the difference.

> 
> I am still not able to run this :
> 
> let $path :=doc('http://localhost:8080/exist/rest/db/myConfig.xml')
> return
> <test>
> {
> $path
> }
> </test>
> 
> -> java.io.FileNotFoundException: 
> -> http://localhost:8080/exist/rest/db/myConfig.xml
> 
> I run the XQuery with java/saxon. The file is imported into 
> the eXist databse. It can be retrieved with using the path in 
> my browser...
> What is the mistake ?
> 
I don't know, offhand. I assume you are running everything on the same
machine? It may be something to do with your Java proxy configuration?

Regards,

Michael Kay
http://www.saxonica.com/
http://twitter.com/michaelhkay 

From liam at w3.org  Thu Jun 11 12:16:25 2009
From: liam at w3.org (Liam Quin)
Date: Thu Jun 11 08:11:21 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] XQuery and databases - XQuery 2.0
In-Reply-To: <20090608150840.308680@gmx.net>
References: <4A263FE1.4040903@as-guides.com> <4A2670E2.8040006@as-guides.com>
	<20090608150840.308680@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <20090611151625.GF16325@w3.org>

On Mon, Jun 08, 2009 at 05:08:40PM +0200, derstubbi@gmx.de wrote:
> I have several questions concerning XQuery :

> 
> 2)Is there (or will there be) possibility to make a
> database-connection just with XQuery ? So that I can give host, port,
> login, passwort, etc and XQuery is able to connect to the database ?
> Am I correct, that at the moment it is only possible if you use XQuery
> executed from java (or an other programming language, that is able to
> create a connection) ? 

This depnds on the XQuery engine you use. E.g. for my own Web site,
the Java-based XQuery engine I use is Qizx, and it does support a
way to connect to a erlational database (I'm assuming this is
what you are asking here?), but the zero-dollar version of that
product is limited to a database of only one gigabyte of XML.

> When will there be a new/newer specification of XQuery (->XQuery 2.0)
> Is it possible to get an overview of the planed changes and new
> possibilities ?

You can look at http://www.w3.org/XML/Query - I admit I'm not very
good at publishing news items, but I do try: there will be one
later today :-)

Liam


-- 
Liam Quin, W3C XML Activity Lead, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/
http://www.holoweb.net/~liam/ * http://www.fromoldbooks.org/
From tim.kraska at inf.ethz.ch  Sun Jun 14 00:27:37 2009
From: tim.kraska at inf.ethz.ch (Tim Kraska)
Date: Sat Jun 13 14:21:53 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] XQuery and databases - XQuery 2.0
In-Reply-To: <20090608150840.308680@gmx.net>
References: <4A263FE1.4040903@as-guides.com> <4A2670E2.8040006@as-guides.com>
	<20090608150840.308680@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <254CA0E9-E4C5-4FD2-8178-8B82873B41B3@inf.ethz.ch>

> 3)
> When will there be a new/newer specification of XQuery (->XQuery 2.0)
> Is it possible to get an overview of the planed changes and new  
> possibilities ?
>

XQuery 1.1 is already on the way:

http://www.w3.org/TR/xquery-11/
http://www.w3.org/TR/xquery-11-use-cases/
http://www.w3.org/TR/xquery-11-requirements/

Best wishes,

Tim
From adam.retter at googlemail.com  Mon Jun 15 21:44:57 2009
From: adam.retter at googlemail.com (Adam Retter)
Date: Mon Jun 15 12:42:41 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] XQuery and databases - XQuery 2.0
In-Reply-To: <20090611151625.GF16325@w3.org>
References: <4A263FE1.4040903@as-guides.com> <4A2670E2.8040006@as-guides.com>
	<20090608150840.308680@gmx.net> <20090611151625.GF16325@w3.org>
Message-ID: <ab70ed440906151244h2248733excc65add88ad750c5@mail.gmail.com>

>> 2)Is there (or will there be) possibility to make a
>> database-connection just with XQuery ? So that I can give host, port,
>> login, passwort, etc and XQuery is able to connect to the database ?
>> Am I correct, that at the moment it is only possible if you use XQuery
>> executed from java (or an other programming language, that is able to
>> create a connection) ?
>
> This depnds on the XQuery engine you use. E.g. for my own Web site,
> the Java-based XQuery engine I use is Qizx, and it does support a
> way to connect to a erlational database (I'm assuming this is
> what you are asking here?), but the zero-dollar version of that
> product is limited to a database of only one gigabyte of XML.

Another option, eXist, provides a XQuery Extenesion module for SQL
connections and queries. I would like to see the concepts from there
eventually it into the EXPath/EXQuery efforts



-- 
Adam Retter
From brian at blumenfeld-maso.com  Mon Jun 15 15:10:44 2009
From: brian at blumenfeld-maso.com (Brian Maso)
Date: Mon Jun 15 14:08:21 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] XQuery and databases - XQuery 2.0
In-Reply-To: <ab70ed440906151244h2248733excc65add88ad750c5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4A263FE1.4040903@as-guides.com> <4A2670E2.8040006@as-guides.com>
	<20090608150840.308680@gmx.net> <20090611151625.GF16325@w3.org>
	<ab70ed440906151244h2248733excc65add88ad750c5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <dcc7a340906151410q2ef52200j7161672f92487729@mail.gmail.com>

I had heard that future versions of the SQL standard are to bring XML in to
SQL -- basically make non-validated XML nodes as valid column types and add
intra-XML indexing. This was quite a while ago that I heard it, but it was
delivered by a reputable source. Seems like these two language have huge
overlap and can eventually be replaced by a single query language.

(Besides, SQL is so incomprehensible for even modestly-sized queries, it
would be great to replace it with something a bit more understandable such
as XQuery; not to mention the legions of vendor specifics and
incompatibilities...)

Best regards,
Brian Maso

On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 12:44 PM, Adam Retter <adam.retter@googlemail.com>wrote:

> >> 2)Is there (or will there be) possibility to make a
> >> database-connection just with XQuery ? So that I can give host, port,
> >> login, passwort, etc and XQuery is able to connect to the database ?
> >> Am I correct, that at the moment it is only possible if you use XQuery
> >> executed from java (or an other programming language, that is able to
> >> create a connection) ?
> >
> > This depnds on the XQuery engine you use. E.g. for my own Web site,
> > the Java-based XQuery engine I use is Qizx, and it does support a
> > way to connect to a erlational database (I'm assuming this is
> > what you are asking here?), but the zero-dollar version of that
> > product is limited to a database of only one gigabyte of XML.
>
> Another option, eXist, provides a XQuery Extenesion module for SQL
> connections and queries. I would like to see the concepts from there
> eventually it into the EXPath/EXQuery efforts
>
> o
>
> --
> Adam Retter
> _______________________________________________
> talk@x-query.com
> http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
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From int19h at gmail.com  Mon Jun 15 15:19:39 2009
From: int19h at gmail.com (Pavel Minaev)
Date: Mon Jun 15 14:17:20 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] XQuery and databases - XQuery 2.0
In-Reply-To: <dcc7a340906151410q2ef52200j7161672f92487729@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4A263FE1.4040903@as-guides.com> <4A2670E2.8040006@as-guides.com> 
	<20090608150840.308680@gmx.net> <20090611151625.GF16325@w3.org> 
	<ab70ed440906151244h2248733excc65add88ad750c5@mail.gmail.com> 
	<dcc7a340906151410q2ef52200j7161672f92487729@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d5c61a20906151419t2f7e9f75w5981aa34d97ca21@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 2:10 PM, Brian Maso<brian@blumenfeld-maso.com> wrote:
> I had heard that future versions of the SQL standard are to bring XML in to
> SQL -- basically make non-validated XML nodes as valid column types and add
> intra-XML indexing.

It's called SQL/XML, and it has been there since SQL-2003:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SQL/XML
From dlee at calldei.com  Mon Jun 15 18:21:56 2009
From: dlee at calldei.com (David A. Lee)
Date: Mon Jun 15 14:18:50 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] XQuery and databases - XQuery 2.0
In-Reply-To: <dcc7a340906151410q2ef52200j7161672f92487729@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4A263FE1.4040903@as-guides.com>
	<4A2670E2.8040006@as-guides.com>	<20090608150840.308680@gmx.net>
	<20090611151625.GF16325@w3.org>	<ab70ed440906151244h2248733excc65add88ad750c5@mail.gmail.com>
	<dcc7a340906151410q2ef52200j7161672f92487729@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A36BB74.2030109@calldei.com>

Not sure about a "standard" but the top DB vendors have done this 
already years ago

Oracle:
http://download.oracle.com/docs/cd/B19306_01/appdev.102/b14259/xdb13gen.htm#i1027254

MS/SQL
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa286527.aspx

DB2
http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/db2/library/techarticle/dm-0603saracco2/

But if you think SQL is incomprehensible, take a gander at what you have 
to do with these (above) implementations to get XML out ....

Give me pure XQuery any day :)





David A. Lee
dlee@calldei.com  
http://www.calldei.com
http://www.xmlsh.org
812-482-5224



Brian Maso wrote:
> I had heard that future versions of the SQL standard are to bring XML 
> in to SQL -- basically make non-validated XML nodes as valid column 
> types and add intra-XML indexing. This was quite a while ago that I 
> heard it, but it was delivered by a reputable source. Seems like these 
> two language have huge overlap and can eventually be replaced by a 
> single query language.
>
> (Besides, SQL is so incomprehensible for even modestly-sized queries, 
> it would be great to replace it with something a bit more 
> understandable such as XQuery; not to mention the legions of vendor 
> specifics and incompatibilities...)
>
> Best regards,
> Brian Maso
>
> On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 12:44 PM, Adam Retter 
> <adam.retter@googlemail.com <mailto:adam.retter@googlemail.com>> wrote:
>
>     >> 2)Is there (or will there be) possibility to make a
>     >> database-connection just with XQuery ? So that I can give host,
>     port,
>     >> login, passwort, etc and XQuery is able to connect to the
>     database ?
>     >> Am I correct, that at the moment it is only possible if you use
>     XQuery
>     >> executed from java (or an other programming language, that is
>     able to
>     >> create a connection) ?
>     >
>     > This depnds on the XQuery engine you use. E.g. for my own Web site,
>     > the Java-based XQuery engine I use is Qizx, and it does support a
>     > way to connect to a erlational database (I'm assuming this is
>     > what you are asking here?), but the zero-dollar version of that
>     > product is limited to a database of only one gigabyte of XML.
>
>     Another option, eXist, provides a XQuery Extenesion module for SQL
>     connections and queries. I would like to see the concepts from there
>     eventually it into the EXPath/EXQuery efforts
>
>     o
>
>     --
>     Adam Retter
>     _______________________________________________
>     talk@x-query.com <mailto:talk@x-query.com>
>     http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk@x-query.com
> http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk
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From mrys at microsoft.com  Mon Jun 15 15:40:03 2009
From: mrys at microsoft.com (Michael Rys)
Date: Mon Jun 15 14:36:38 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] XQuery and databases - XQuery 2.0
In-Reply-To: <4A36BB74.2030109@calldei.com>
References: <4A263FE1.4040903@as-guides.com>
	<4A2670E2.8040006@as-guides.com>	<20090608150840.308680@gmx.net>
	<20090611151625.GF16325@w3.org>
	<ab70ed440906151244h2248733excc65add88ad750c5@mail.gmail.com>
	<dcc7a340906151410q2ef52200j7161672f92487729@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A36BB74.2030109@calldei.com>
Message-ID: <390310B3D9102C47B28642DB3CB9BE732515529ADD@NA-EXMSG-C115.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>

Look at part 14 of the ISO/ANSI SQL Spec for the standardized support for XML and XQuery in SQL.

Best regards
Michael

PS: If your goal is to get XML out from relational data, I would recommend looking at http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms345137.aspx#forxml2k5_topic6 for MS/SQL.

From: talk-bounces@x-query.com [mailto:talk-bounces@x-query.com] On Behalf Of David A. Lee
Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 2:22 PM
To: Brian Maso
Cc: talk@xquery.com
Subject: Re: [xquery-talk] XQuery and databases - XQuery 2.0

Not sure about a "standard" but the top DB vendors have done this already years ago

Oracle:
http://download.oracle.com/docs/cd/B19306_01/appdev.102/b14259/xdb13gen.htm#i1027254

MS/SQL
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa286527.aspx

DB2
http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/db2/library/techarticle/dm-0603saracco2/

But if you think SQL is incomprehensible, take a gander at what you have to do with these (above) implementations to get XML out ....

Give me pure XQuery any day :)







David A. Lee

dlee@calldei.com<mailto:dlee@calldei.com>

http://www.calldei.com

http://www.xmlsh.org

812-482-5224


Brian Maso wrote:
I had heard that future versions of the SQL standard are to bring XML in to SQL -- basically make non-validated XML nodes as valid column types and add intra-XML indexing. This was quite a while ago that I heard it, but it was delivered by a reputable source. Seems like these two language have huge overlap and can eventually be replaced by a single query language.

(Besides, SQL is so incomprehensible for even modestly-sized queries, it would be great to replace it with something a bit more understandable such as XQuery; not to mention the legions of vendor specifics and incompatibilities...)

Best regards,
Brian Maso
On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 12:44 PM, Adam Retter <adam.retter@googlemail.com<mailto:adam.retter@googlemail.com>> wrote:
>> 2)Is there (or will there be) possibility to make a
>> database-connection just with XQuery ? So that I can give host, port,
>> login, passwort, etc and XQuery is able to connect to the database ?
>> Am I correct, that at the moment it is only possible if you use XQuery
>> executed from java (or an other programming language, that is able to
>> create a connection) ?
>
> This depnds on the XQuery engine you use. E.g. for my own Web site,
> the Java-based XQuery engine I use is Qizx, and it does support a
> way to connect to a erlational database (I'm assuming this is
> what you are asking here?), but the zero-dollar version of that
> product is limited to a database of only one gigabyte of XML.

Another option, eXist, provides a XQuery Extenesion module for SQL
connections and queries. I would like to see the concepts from there
eventually it into the EXPath/EXQuery efforts

o

--
Adam Retter
_______________________________________________
talk@x-query.com<mailto:talk@x-query.com>
http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk








________________________________






_______________________________________________

talk@x-query.com<mailto:talk@x-query.com>

http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk
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From brian at blumenfeld-maso.com  Mon Jun 15 15:45:16 2009
From: brian at blumenfeld-maso.com (Brian Maso)
Date: Mon Jun 15 14:37:29 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] XQuery and databases - XQuery 2.0
In-Reply-To: <d5c61a20906151419t2f7e9f75w5981aa34d97ca21@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4A263FE1.4040903@as-guides.com> <4A2670E2.8040006@as-guides.com>
	<20090608150840.308680@gmx.net> <20090611151625.GF16325@w3.org>
	<ab70ed440906151244h2248733excc65add88ad750c5@mail.gmail.com>
	<dcc7a340906151410q2ef52200j7161672f92487729@mail.gmail.com>
	<d5c61a20906151419t2f7e9f75w5981aa34d97ca21@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <dcc7a340906151445obb3b04arabfc105116c7404c@mail.gmail.com>

Yea, I knew about SQL/XML. I was thinking more about intra-column indexing
-- so if I have an XML column I could write an efficient WHERE clause on the
value of a specific descendant element value. I don't believe SQL/XML
defines a way to ddefine indexes using, say, an XPath expression.

Best regards,
Brian Maso

On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 2:19 PM, Pavel Minaev <int19h@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 2:10 PM, Brian Maso<brian@blumenfeld-maso.com>
> wrote:
> > I had heard that future versions of the SQL standard are to bring XML in
> to
> > SQL -- basically make non-validated XML nodes as valid column types and
> add
> > intra-XML indexing.
>
> It's called SQL/XML, and it has been there since SQL-2003:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SQL/XML
> _______________________________________________
> talk@x-query.com
> http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
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From dlee at calldei.com  Mon Jun 15 20:50:53 2009
From: dlee at calldei.com (David A. Lee)
Date: Mon Jun 15 16:43:48 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] XQuery and databases - XQuery 2.0
In-Reply-To: <dcc7a340906151445obb3b04arabfc105116c7404c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4A263FE1.4040903@as-guides.com>
	<4A2670E2.8040006@as-guides.com>	<20090608150840.308680@gmx.net>
	<20090611151625.GF16325@w3.org>	<ab70ed440906151244h2248733excc65add88ad750c5@mail.gmail.com>	<dcc7a340906151410q2ef52200j7161672f92487729@mail.gmail.com>	<d5c61a20906151419t2f7e9f75w5981aa34d97ca21@mail.gmail.com>
	<dcc7a340906151445obb3b04arabfc105116c7404c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A36DE5D.1080503@calldei.com>

I believe oracle's implementation lets you do that, but its not "standard".


David A. Lee
dlee@calldei.com  
http://www.calldei.com
http://www.xmlsh.org
812-482-5224



Brian Maso wrote:
> Yea, I knew about SQL/XML. I was thinking more about intra-column 
> indexing -- so if I have an XML column I could write an efficient 
> WHERE clause on the value of a specific descendant element value. I 
> don't believe SQL/XML defines a way to ddefine indexes using, say, an 
> XPath expression.
>
> Best regards,
> Brian Maso
>
> On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 2:19 PM, Pavel Minaev <int19h@gmail.com 
> <mailto:int19h@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 2:10 PM, Brian
>     Maso<brian@blumenfeld-maso.com <mailto:brian@blumenfeld-maso.com>>
>     wrote:
>     > I had heard that future versions of the SQL standard are to
>     bring XML in to
>     > SQL -- basically make non-validated XML nodes as valid column
>     types and add
>     > intra-XML indexing.
>
>     It's called SQL/XML, and it has been there since SQL-2003:
>
>     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SQL/XML
>     _______________________________________________
>     talk@x-query.com <mailto:talk@x-query.com>
>     http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk@x-query.com
> http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk
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From mrys at microsoft.com  Mon Jun 15 19:43:22 2009
From: mrys at microsoft.com (Michael Rys)
Date: Mon Jun 15 18:35:59 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] XQuery and databases - XQuery 2.0
In-Reply-To: <4A36DE5D.1080503@calldei.com>
References: <4A263FE1.4040903@as-guides.com>
	<4A2670E2.8040006@as-guides.com>	<20090608150840.308680@gmx.net>
	<20090611151625.GF16325@w3.org>
	<ab70ed440906151244h2248733excc65add88ad750c5@mail.gmail.com>
	<dcc7a340906151410q2ef52200j7161672f92487729@mail.gmail.com>
	<d5c61a20906151419t2f7e9f75w5981aa34d97ca21@mail.gmail.com>
	<dcc7a340906151445obb3b04arabfc105116c7404c@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A36DE5D.1080503@calldei.com>
Message-ID: <390310B3D9102C47B28642DB3CB9BE732515529C10@NA-EXMSG-C115.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>

The SQL standard never defines indexing strategies. Not for relational data nor for XML.

All vendors provide indexing mechanisms.

Michael

From: talk-bounces@x-query.com [mailto:talk-bounces@x-query.com] On Behalf Of David A. Lee
Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 4:51 PM
To: Brian Maso
Cc: talk@x-query.com
Subject: Re: [xquery-talk] XQuery and databases - XQuery 2.0

I believe oracle's implementation lets you do that, but its not "standard".




David A. Lee

dlee@calldei.com<mailto:dlee@calldei.com>

http://www.calldei.com

http://www.xmlsh.org

812-482-5224


Brian Maso wrote:
Yea, I knew about SQL/XML. I was thinking more about intra-column indexing -- so if I have an XML column I could write an efficient WHERE clause on the value of a specific descendant element value. I don't believe SQL/XML defines a way to ddefine indexes using, say, an XPath expression.

Best regards,
Brian Maso
On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 2:19 PM, Pavel Minaev <int19h@gmail.com<mailto:int19h@gmail.com>> wrote:
On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 2:10 PM, Brian Maso<brian@blumenfeld-maso.com<mailto:brian@blumenfeld-maso.com>> wrote:
> I had heard that future versions of the SQL standard are to bring XML in to
> SQL -- basically make non-validated XML nodes as valid column types and add
> intra-XML indexing.

It's called SQL/XML, and it has been there since SQL-2003:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SQL/XML
_______________________________________________
talk@x-query.com<mailto:talk@x-query.com>
http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk








________________________________






_______________________________________________

talk@x-query.com<mailto:talk@x-query.com>

http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk
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From rpbourret at rpbourret.com  Mon Jun 15 22:13:36 2009
From: rpbourret at rpbourret.com (Ronald Bourret)
Date: Mon Jun 15 21:06:31 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] XQuery and databases - XQuery 2.0
In-Reply-To: <4A36BB74.2030109@calldei.com>
References: <4A263FE1.4040903@as-guides.com>	<4A2670E2.8040006@as-guides.com>	<20090608150840.308680@gmx.net>	<20090611151625.GF16325@w3.org>	<ab70ed440906151244h2248733excc65add88ad750c5@mail.gmail.com>	<dcc7a340906151410q2ef52200j7161672f92487729@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A36BB74.2030109@calldei.com>
Message-ID: <4A371BF0.7040905@rpbourret.com>

To clarify:

1) SQL/XML defines an XML data type, a syntax for constructing XML 
values from relational data, and functions for executing XQuery queries 
against XML values, creating tables from XML values/sequences, etc. It's 
worth noting that XML values are the same as XQuery sequences -- that 
is, not necessarily well-formed.

2) Oracle and DB2 implement SQL/XML. SQL Server implements the XML data 
type from SQL/XML, but uses a non-standard syntax for creating XML 
values from relational data.

3) Lots of things are non-standard. As Michael mentioned, there is no 
standard way to define an index on an XML value. Also not standard are 
things like whether you can directly execute an XQuery statement or need 
to embed it in an SQL statement; how to query relational values from 
within an XQuery statement; how XML results are retrieved from a result 
set (JDBC 4.0 defines this); and so on.

4) Different databases implement the XML data type differently, and 
these implementation choices can lead to large differences in 
performance. (Performance is obviously also query- and index-dependent.)

-- Ron

David A. Lee wrote:
> Not sure about a "standard" but the top DB vendors have done this 
> already years ago
> 
> Oracle:
> http://download.oracle.com/docs/cd/B19306_01/appdev.102/b14259/xdb13gen.htm#i1027254 
> 
> 
> MS/SQL
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa286527.aspx
> 
> DB2
> http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/db2/library/techarticle/dm-0603saracco2/
> 
> But if you think SQL is incomprehensible, take a gander at what you have 
> to do with these (above) implementations to get XML out ....
> 
> Give me pure XQuery any day :)
From brian at blumenfeld-maso.com  Mon Jun 15 22:28:35 2009
From: brian at blumenfeld-maso.com (Brian Maso)
Date: Mon Jun 15 21:21:06 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] XQuery and databases - XQuery 2.0
In-Reply-To: <4A371BF0.7040905@rpbourret.com>
References: <4A263FE1.4040903@as-guides.com> <4A2670E2.8040006@as-guides.com>
	<20090608150840.308680@gmx.net> <20090611151625.GF16325@w3.org>
	<ab70ed440906151244h2248733excc65add88ad750c5@mail.gmail.com>
	<dcc7a340906151410q2ef52200j7161672f92487729@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A36BB74.2030109@calldei.com> <4A371BF0.7040905@rpbourret.com>
Message-ID: <dcc7a340906152128i13df7d13g2edec6be3baa88fc@mail.gmail.com>

(Ignoring the performance issue mentioned below altogether, since that is an
implementation difference only)

Wouldn't it be great to use XQuery to access or modify relational data AND
XML data instead of SQL/XML? I'm sure there are a few SQL/XML enthusiasts
out there, but XQuery just makes so much more sense in my brain that
equivalent SQL. Having no influence other than my persuasive voice, I really
wish someone would boil the SQL ocean and magically switch the world to a
more XQuery-like language...

Brian Maso

On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 9:13 PM, Ronald Bourret <rpbourret@rpbourret.com>wrote:

> To clarify:
>
> 1) SQL/XML defines an XML data type, a syntax for constructing XML values
> from relational data, and functions for executing XQuery queries against XML
> values, creating tables from XML values/sequences, etc. It's worth noting
> that XML values are the same as XQuery sequences -- that is, not necessarily
> well-formed.
>
> 2) Oracle and DB2 implement SQL/XML. SQL Server implements the XML data
> type from SQL/XML, but uses a non-standard syntax for creating XML values
> from relational data.
>
> 3) Lots of things are non-standard. As Michael mentioned, there is no
> standard way to define an index on an XML value. Also not standard are
> things like whether you can directly execute an XQuery statement or need to
> embed it in an SQL statement; how to query relational values from within an
> XQuery statement; how XML results are retrieved from a result set (JDBC 4.0
> defines this); and so on.
>
> 4) Different databases implement the XML data type differently, and these
> implementation choices can lead to large differences in performance.
> (Performance is obviously also query- and index-dependent.)
>
> -- Ron
>
> David A. Lee wrote:
>
>> Not sure about a "standard" but the top DB vendors have done this already
>> years ago
>>
>> Oracle:
>>
>> http://download.oracle.com/docs/cd/B19306_01/appdev.102/b14259/xdb13gen.htm#i1027254
>>
>> MS/SQL
>> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa286527.aspx
>>
>> DB2
>> http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/db2/library/techarticle/dm-0603saracco2/
>>
>> But if you think SQL is incomprehensible, take a gander at what you have
>> to do with these (above) implementations to get XML out ....
>>
>> Give me pure XQuery any day :)
>>
> _______________________________________________
> talk@x-query.com
> http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
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From int19h at gmail.com  Mon Jun 15 22:36:16 2009
From: int19h at gmail.com (Pavel Minaev)
Date: Mon Jun 15 21:29:06 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] XQuery and databases - XQuery 2.0
In-Reply-To: <dcc7a340906152128i13df7d13g2edec6be3baa88fc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4A263FE1.4040903@as-guides.com> <4A2670E2.8040006@as-guides.com> 
	<20090608150840.308680@gmx.net> <20090611151625.GF16325@w3.org> 
	<ab70ed440906151244h2248733excc65add88ad750c5@mail.gmail.com> 
	<dcc7a340906151410q2ef52200j7161672f92487729@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4A36BB74.2030109@calldei.com> <4A371BF0.7040905@rpbourret.com> 
	<dcc7a340906152128i13df7d13g2edec6be3baa88fc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d5c61a20906152136u472d8a1fp530e7bf4ea07f4c9@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 9:28 PM, Brian Maso<brian@blumenfeld-maso.com> wrote:
> Wouldn't it be great to use XQuery to access or modify relational data AND
> XML data instead of SQL/XML? I'm sure there are a few SQL/XML enthusiasts
> out there, but XQuery just makes so much more sense in my brain that
> equivalent SQL. Having no influence other than my persuasive voice, I really
> wish someone would boil the SQL ocean and magically switch the world to a
> more XQuery-like language...

Isn't it precisely what DataDirect XQuery is all about?
(http://www.datadirect.com/products/xquery/index.ssp)
From gary.m.lewis at gmail.com  Wed Jun 17 11:13:51 2009
From: gary.m.lewis at gmail.com (Gary Lewis)
Date: Wed Jun 17 07:13:58 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] xquery & web server in browser
Message-ID: <1be6002b0906170713h258f22efy2b274baa04e71777@mail.gmail.com>

I'm a new member of the talk list and am uncertain that my question is
appropriate. Please ignore if it is off topic.

Can anyone comment on the possibility that xquery could be used as a
data integration/mashup tool running in a browser that included a web
server? There's been quite a bit of excitement the past couple days
about the Opera Unite announcement of its "web server in a web
browser" concept. Is it possible that xquery, as a
query/integration/transformation tool, might someday be a plugin to a
browser (eg, Chrome; Chrome/Wave)?

I'm asking out of ignorance more than anything. The dots seem to be
there for the connecting, but I guess that's what I'm asking ... are
the dots there, are they likely to be connected, or is it just wishful
 thinking?

 Just so you have some orientation as to where this question is coming
from. I'm basically a data user ... someone who uses tools like SQL
and XQuery and R to do analysis with data. In the course of doing
this, I've stretched into the IT side of things and designed
enterprise data warehouses etc. So my interest in
xquery-in-a-web-server-browser is so I can do cool things with data.
I'm not interested in actually creating an xquery plugin that would
make this possible. I wouldn't even know how to start.

Thanks.

Gary
From james.fuller.2007 at gmail.com  Wed Jun 17 17:25:41 2009
From: james.fuller.2007 at gmail.com (James Fuller)
Date: Wed Jun 17 07:25:45 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] xquery & web server in browser
In-Reply-To: <1be6002b0906170713h258f22efy2b274baa04e71777@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1be6002b0906170713h258f22efy2b274baa04e71777@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a0ad8ffe0906170725r17aec9e7s605a0fe017734bb0@mail.gmail.com>

Hello Gary,


On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 4:13 PM, Gary Lewis<gary.m.lewis@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm a new member of the talk list and am uncertain that my question is
> appropriate. Please ignore if it is off topic.

welcome, your question is fine.

> Can anyone comment on the possibility that xquery could be used as a
> data integration/mashup tool running in a browser that included a web
> server? There's been quite a bit of excitement the past couple days
> about the Opera Unite announcement of its "web server in a web
> browser" concept. Is it possible that xquery, as a
> query/integration/transformation tool, might someday be a plugin to a
> browser (eg, Chrome; Chrome/Wave)?

sure why not ... XSLT support in the browser was/is a plugin and sets
a precedent for this kind of thing

> I'm asking out of ignorance more than anything. The dots seem to be
> there for the connecting, but I guess that's what I'm asking ... are
> the dots there, are they likely to be connected, or is it just wishful
> ?thinking?

ah yes, the dots ... let me just say that finding and connecting them
is the always the easy part.

XQuery in the browser would be great, anything that reduces the
hegemony that is javascript ... which reminds me, I know it sounds
strange but perhaps browsers will turn into *the* personal 'database'
for the individual someday and it will be natural to have something
like xquery to help process the data it contains.

Jim Fuller

From michael.reiche at oracle.com  Wed Jun 17 08:31:52 2009
From: michael.reiche at oracle.com (michael.reiche@oracle.com)
Date: Wed Jun 17 07:32:02 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] xquery & web server in browser
Message-ID: <6f112a48-f177-495b-ae22-07ed1183d10a@default>

http://www.zorba-xquery.com/index.php/xquery-in-the-browser-a-user-testimonial/

- Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary M Lewis" <gary.m.lewis@gmail.com>
To: "Talk" <talk@x-query.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 7:25:52 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: [xquery-talk] xquery & web server in browser

I'm a new member of the talk list and am uncertain that my question is
appropriate. Please ignore if it is off topic.

Can anyone comment on the possibility that xquery could be used as a
data integration/mashup tool running in a browser that included a web
server? There's been quite a bit of excitement the past couple days
about the Opera Unite announcement of its "web server in a web
browser" concept. Is it possible that xquery, as a
query/integration/transformation tool, might someday be a plugin to a
browser (eg, Chrome; Chrome/Wave)?

I'm asking out of ignorance more than anything. The dots seem to be
there for the connecting, but I guess that's what I'm asking ... are
the dots there, are they likely to be connected, or is it just wishful
 thinking?

 Just so you have some orientation as to where this question is coming
from. I'm basically a data user ... someone who uses tools like SQL
and XQuery and R to do analysis with data. In the course of doing
this, I've stretched into the IT side of things and designed
enterprise data warehouses etc. So my interest in
xquery-in-a-web-server-browser is so I can do cool things with data.
I'm not interested in actually creating an xquery plugin that would
make this possible. I wouldn't even know how to start.

Thanks.

Gary
_______________________________________________
talk@x-query.com
http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk

From adam.retter at googlemail.com  Wed Jun 17 16:32:56 2009
From: adam.retter at googlemail.com (Adam Retter)
Date: Wed Jun 17 07:32:58 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] xquery & web server in browser
In-Reply-To: <1be6002b0906170713h258f22efy2b274baa04e71777@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1be6002b0906170713h258f22efy2b274baa04e71777@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ab70ed440906170732v6a053acdocd84627a3187b660@mail.gmail.com>

This may be of interest -
http://www.zorba-xquery.com/index.php/xquery-in-the-browser-xqib/



2009/6/17 Gary Lewis <gary.m.lewis@gmail.com>:
> I'm a new member of the talk list and am uncertain that my question is
> appropriate. Please ignore if it is off topic.
>
> Can anyone comment on the possibility that xquery could be used as a
> data integration/mashup tool running in a browser that included a web
> server? There's been quite a bit of excitement the past couple days
> about the Opera Unite announcement of its "web server in a web
> browser" concept. Is it possible that xquery, as a
> query/integration/transformation tool, might someday be a plugin to a
> browser (eg, Chrome; Chrome/Wave)?
>
> I'm asking out of ignorance more than anything. The dots seem to be
> there for the connecting, but I guess that's what I'm asking ... are
> the dots there, are they likely to be connected, or is it just wishful
> ?thinking?
>
> ?Just so you have some orientation as to where this question is coming
> from. I'm basically a data user ... someone who uses tools like SQL
> and XQuery and R to do analysis with data. In the course of doing
> this, I've stretched into the IT side of things and designed
> enterprise data warehouses etc. So my interest in
> xquery-in-a-web-server-browser is so I can do cool things with data.
> I'm not interested in actually creating an xquery plugin that would
> make this possible. I wouldn't even know how to start.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Gary
> _______________________________________________
> talk@x-query.com
> http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk
>



-- 
Adam Retter

sip:adam.retter@ekiga.net
http://www.adamretter.org.uk

From mike at saxonica.com  Wed Jun 17 16:42:02 2009
From: mike at saxonica.com (Michael Kay)
Date: Wed Jun 17 07:42:12 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] xquery & web server in browser
In-Reply-To: <1be6002b0906170713h258f22efy2b274baa04e71777@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1be6002b0906170713h258f22efy2b274baa04e71777@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2DCF3001DBFB4F5A84E591E9A3D44264@Sealion>


There are a lot of people keen on the idea of xquery in the web browser.

Unfortunately, though, I think there's a bit of a conflict. A lot of the
benefits of the web architecture come from the fact that the browser is
small, ubiqitous, and predictable. The more goodies you put in it, the less
that remains true. And the less it is true, the harder it is to write
applications that will run anywhere and talk to anything. This is why, after
ten years, writing applications that rely on XSLT-in-the-browser can still
be problematic, as recently discussed on the xml-dev list.

Regards,

Michael Kay
http://www.saxonica.com/
http://twitter.com/michaelhkay 

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: talk-bounces@x-query.com 
> [mailto:talk-bounces@x-query.com] On Behalf Of Gary Lewis
> Sent: 17 June 2009 15:14
> To: talk@x-query.com
> Subject: [xquery-talk] xquery & web server in browser
> 
> I'm a new member of the talk list and am uncertain that my 
> question is appropriate. Please ignore if it is off topic.
> 
> Can anyone comment on the possibility that xquery could be 
> used as a data integration/mashup tool running in a browser 
> that included a web server? There's been quite a bit of 
> excitement the past couple days about the Opera Unite 
> announcement of its "web server in a web browser" concept. Is 
> it possible that xquery, as a 
> query/integration/transformation tool, might someday be a 
> plugin to a browser (eg, Chrome; Chrome/Wave)?
> 
> I'm asking out of ignorance more than anything. The dots seem 
> to be there for the connecting, but I guess that's what I'm 
> asking ... are the dots there, are they likely to be 
> connected, or is it just wishful  thinking?
> 
>  Just so you have some orientation as to where this question 
> is coming from. I'm basically a data user ... someone who 
> uses tools like SQL and XQuery and R to do analysis with 
> data. In the course of doing this, I've stretched into the IT 
> side of things and designed enterprise data warehouses etc. 
> So my interest in xquery-in-a-web-server-browser is so I can 
> do cool things with data.
> I'm not interested in actually creating an xquery plugin that 
> would make this possible. I wouldn't even know how to start.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Gary
> _______________________________________________
> talk@x-query.com
> http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk

From vyacheslav.sedov at gmail.com  Wed Jun 17 20:21:08 2009
From: vyacheslav.sedov at gmail.com (Vyacheslav Sedov)
Date: Wed Jun 17 08:21:12 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] xquery & web server in browser
In-Reply-To: <2DCF3001DBFB4F5A84E591E9A3D44264@Sealion>
References: <1be6002b0906170713h258f22efy2b274baa04e71777@mail.gmail.com>
	<2DCF3001DBFB4F5A84E591E9A3D44264@Sealion>
Message-ID: <7ab7cbac0906170821va2f478dhd07c051d741c9c9e@mail.gmail.com>

http://xqib.org

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 6:42 PM, Michael Kay<mike@saxonica.com> wrote:
>
> There are a lot of people keen on the idea of xquery in the web browser.
>
> Unfortunately, though, I think there's a bit of a conflict. A lot of the
> benefits of the web architecture come from the fact that the browser is
> small, ubiqitous, and predictable. The more goodies you put in it, the less
> that remains true. And the less it is true, the harder it is to write
> applications that will run anywhere and talk to anything. This is why, after
> ten years, writing applications that rely on XSLT-in-the-browser can still
> be problematic, as recently discussed on the xml-dev list.
>
> Regards,
>
> Michael Kay
> http://www.saxonica.com/
> http://twitter.com/michaelhkay
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: talk-bounces@x-query.com
>> [mailto:talk-bounces@x-query.com] On Behalf Of Gary Lewis
>> Sent: 17 June 2009 15:14
>> To: talk@x-query.com
>> Subject: [xquery-talk] xquery & web server in browser
>>
>> I'm a new member of the talk list and am uncertain that my
>> question is appropriate. Please ignore if it is off topic.
>>
>> Can anyone comment on the possibility that xquery could be
>> used as a data integration/mashup tool running in a browser
>> that included a web server? There's been quite a bit of
>> excitement the past couple days about the Opera Unite
>> announcement of its "web server in a web browser" concept. Is
>> it possible that xquery, as a
>> query/integration/transformation tool, might someday be a
>> plugin to a browser (eg, Chrome; Chrome/Wave)?
>>
>> I'm asking out of ignorance more than anything. The dots seem
>> to be there for the connecting, but I guess that's what I'm
>> asking ... are the dots there, are they likely to be
>> connected, or is it just wishful ?thinking?
>>
>> ?Just so you have some orientation as to where this question
>> is coming from. I'm basically a data user ... someone who
>> uses tools like SQL and XQuery and R to do analysis with
>> data. In the course of doing this, I've stretched into the IT
>> side of things and designed enterprise data warehouses etc.
>> So my interest in xquery-in-a-web-server-browser is so I can
>> do cool things with data.
>> I'm not interested in actually creating an xquery plugin that
>> would make this possible. I wouldn't even know how to start.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Gary
>> _______________________________________________
>> talk@x-query.com
>> http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk@x-query.com
> http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk
>

From mpilman at student.ethz.ch  Wed Jun 17 20:26:32 2009
From: mpilman at student.ethz.ch (Markus Pilman)
Date: Wed Jun 17 12:52:44 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] xquery & web server in browser
In-Reply-To: <2DCF3001DBFB4F5A84E591E9A3D44264@Sealion>
References: <1be6002b0906170713h258f22efy2b274baa04e71777@mail.gmail.com> 
	<2DCF3001DBFB4F5A84E591E9A3D44264@Sealion>
Message-ID: <60f8b5ce0906171026g695d01bcl1b5fe6d5f6efd998@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Gary,

I surely see your point about XQuery in the browser - as stated before
by others: check out our project at http://www.xqib.org/

At the moment, the release works only with Internet Explorer - but the
next release (which is nearly finished - we hope to release it this
month) will also run with Firefox and will be much faster. Feel free
to contact me directly, if you are interested in it.

But I wanted to ask you, where exactly you see the usecases of having
a web server in the browser? To be honest: the last thing I want
running in my browser is a server (as Michael stated because of
complexity, but also because of security). Also, in most companies
(and also on most routers), all ports are normally closed, which makes
a webserver useless. The only benefit I can see, is that this way it
would be easy to implement some kind of RPC from the server to the
client. But in my oppinion, this would be a too small advantage to
legitimate a webserver.

Regards,

Markus

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 4:42 PM, Michael Kay<mike@saxonica.com> wrote:
>
> There are a lot of people keen on the idea of xquery in the web browser.
>
> Unfortunately, though, I think there's a bit of a conflict. A lot of the
> benefits of the web architecture come from the fact that the browser is
> small, ubiqitous, and predictable. The more goodies you put in it, the less
> that remains true. And the less it is true, the harder it is to write
> applications that will run anywhere and talk to anything. This is why, after
> ten years, writing applications that rely on XSLT-in-the-browser can still
> be problematic, as recently discussed on the xml-dev list.
>
> Regards,
>
> Michael Kay
> http://www.saxonica.com/
> http://twitter.com/michaelhkay
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: talk-bounces@x-query.com
>> [mailto:talk-bounces@x-query.com] On Behalf Of Gary Lewis
>> Sent: 17 June 2009 15:14
>> To: talk@x-query.com
>> Subject: [xquery-talk] xquery & web server in browser
>>
>> I'm a new member of the talk list and am uncertain that my
>> question is appropriate. Please ignore if it is off topic.
>>
>> Can anyone comment on the possibility that xquery could be
>> used as a data integration/mashup tool running in a browser
>> that included a web server? There's been quite a bit of
>> excitement the past couple days about the Opera Unite
>> announcement of its "web server in a web browser" concept. Is
>> it possible that xquery, as a
>> query/integration/transformation tool, might someday be a
>> plugin to a browser (eg, Chrome; Chrome/Wave)?
>>
>> I'm asking out of ignorance more than anything. The dots seem
>> to be there for the connecting, but I guess that's what I'm
>> asking ... are the dots there, are they likely to be
>> connected, or is it just wishful ?thinking?
>>
>> ?Just so you have some orientation as to where this question
>> is coming from. I'm basically a data user ... someone who
>> uses tools like SQL and XQuery and R to do analysis with
>> data. In the course of doing this, I've stretched into the IT
>> side of things and designed enterprise data warehouses etc.
>> So my interest in xquery-in-a-web-server-browser is so I can
>> do cool things with data.
>> I'm not interested in actually creating an xquery plugin that
>> would make this possible. I wouldn't even know how to start.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Gary
>> _______________________________________________
>> talk@x-query.com
>> http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk@x-query.com
> http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk
>

From int19h at gmail.com  Wed Jun 17 11:25:41 2009
From: int19h at gmail.com (Pavel Minaev)
Date: Wed Jun 17 13:15:27 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] xquery & web server in browser
In-Reply-To: <2DCF3001DBFB4F5A84E591E9A3D44264@Sealion>
References: <1be6002b0906170713h258f22efy2b274baa04e71777@mail.gmail.com> 
	<2DCF3001DBFB4F5A84E591E9A3D44264@Sealion>
Message-ID: <d5c61a20906171025p6a560119pcb1bd226fa869bca@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 7:42 AM, Michael Kay<mike@saxonica.com> wrote:
> There are a lot of people keen on the idea of xquery in the web browser.
>
> Unfortunately, though, I think there's a bit of a conflict. A lot of the
> benefits of the web architecture come from the fact that the browser is
> small, ubiqitous, and predictable.

Well, one way to achieve the same result is to build on that small and
predictable foundation. This rules out plugins, but there's other
possibility - that of "compiling" XQuery to cross-browser JavaScript.
We already have GWT that does a similar thing, so the general concept
is proven, and I don't see why doing the same to XQuery would be any
harder. The main problem that I see there is that browser XML
manipulation APIs aren't standardized yet, but this is going to change
with HTML5 (and meanwhile there are already "good enough" ways to work
around this by detecting and using the mush-mash of the existing
browser-specific APIs).
From gary.m.lewis at gmail.com  Wed Jun 17 12:30:34 2009
From: gary.m.lewis at gmail.com (Gary Lewis)
Date: Wed Jun 17 13:44:30 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] xquery & web server in browser
Message-ID: <1be6002b0906170830q5453ded0t573fd92c8f9b76c1@mail.gmail.com>

A couple people have mentioned zorba. I've used and quite like zorba
xquery; even wrote a blog post about it and included some analysis of
Federal Reserve Economic Data time series accessed via an API with
zorba.

I'm also familiar with the zorba XQIB project but do not use a Windows
OS so have not played with it yet. But my impression (probably wrong)
is that XQIB is cast mostly as an alternative to JavaScript, using
scripting extensions to XQuery. If true (please let me know
otherwise), I'm not so much interested in this aspect. As I said
earlier, I'm mostly interested in a data integration & transformation
tool that sits in a browser and gets used as a precursor to analysis &
graphics tools.

Thanks to all who've responded. It's been an helpful orientation,
since my question is really a stretch into the unknown for me.

Gary
From mlu at as-guides.com  Wed Jun 17 19:24:46 2009
From: mlu at as-guides.com (Michael Ludwig)
Date: Wed Jun 17 13:53:57 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] xquery & web server in browser
In-Reply-To: <ab70ed440906170732v6a053acdocd84627a3187b660@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1be6002b0906170713h258f22efy2b274baa04e71777@mail.gmail.com>
	<ab70ed440906170732v6a053acdocd84627a3187b660@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A3918CE.9020301@as-guides.com>

Adam Retter schrieb:
> This may be of interest -
> http://www.zorba-xquery.com/index.php/xquery-in-the-browser-xqib/

I found this is a bad starting point, because of all the errors.

(1) "text/xqueryp" should probably be "text/xquery"
(2) XHTML namespace not declared in XQuery (not necessary?)
(3) H1 should be h1 - but then apparently it shouldn't? Bizarrely,
     //H1 works while //h1 doesn't.
(4) typographical quotes lead to non-recognition of XQuery <script>

This is better to get started: http://www.xqib.org/samples/

Michael Ludwig
From gary.m.lewis at gmail.com  Wed Jun 17 17:46:09 2009
From: gary.m.lewis at gmail.com (Gary Lewis)
Date: Wed Jun 17 14:17:08 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] Fwd: xquery & web server in browser
In-Reply-To: <1be6002b0906171329t5e579601rb394db2083d9b21f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1be6002b0906170713h258f22efy2b274baa04e71777@mail.gmail.com>
	<2DCF3001DBFB4F5A84E591E9A3D44264@Sealion>
	<60f8b5ce0906171026g695d01bcl1b5fe6d5f6efd998@mail.gmail.com>
	<1be6002b0906171329t5e579601rb394db2083d9b21f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1be6002b0906171346t777539bay1843e998897f3899@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry, all. In this post to Markus, I forgot to cc talk@x-query.com.
So I'm forwarding it now.

Also, it looks like an earlier reply I made was bounced. So here's the
bounced message. And then that is followed by the forwarded message.
What a mess.


BOUNCED?
Transmit Report:

 To: darin@paran.com, 2009/06/18 05:14:29, 452, This mailbox is
temporarily disabled. This mailbox is automatically ena


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Gary Lewis <gary.m.lewis@gmail.com>
To: talk@x-query.com
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 11:30:34 -0400
Subject: [xquery-talk] xquery & web server in browser
A couple people have mentioned zorba. I've used and quite like zorba
xquery; even wrote a blog post about it and included some analysis of
Federal Reserve Economic Data time series accessed via an API with
zorba.

I'm also familiar with the zorba XQIB project but do not use a Windows
OS so have not played with it yet. But my impression (probably wrong)
is that XQIB is cast mostly as an alternative to JavaScript, using
scripting extensions to XQuery. If true (please let me know
otherwise), I'm not so much interested in this aspect. As I said
earlier, I'm mostly interested in a data integration & transformation
tool that sits in a browser and gets used as a precursor to analysis &
graphics tools.

Thanks to all who've responded. It's been an helpful orientation,
since my question is really a stretch into the unknown for me.

Gary


FORGOT to cc talk@x-query.com
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Gary Lewis <gary.m.lewis@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 4:29 PM
Subject: Re: [xquery-talk] xquery & web server in browser
To: mpilman@student.ethz.ch


Hi Markus - I'm in over my head here. I wish I had the knowledge
necessary to provide the use case you'd no doubt like. But I'll do the
best I can.

Let's start with this question. In a p2p web ... as Google Chrome/Wave
and Opera Unite suggest might happen ... is there a new role for
xquery? I guess I'd answer that question with a tentative "Yes."
Here's a simple example. There's a lot of buzz around transparency now
... government transparency, data transparency, etc. In the U.S.,
data.gov is a recent case. The idea is simple enough. Make government
data sets available to the public and let them mash it up and then
share it. [In some ways this scenario gives me the creeps, because I
know from years of experience how very difficult it is to insure data
integrity during analysis.] I'd love to use xquery as a data
integration and transformation tool as preparation for analysis,
visualization, & presentation. And then to share the data with others
in a kind of social network of data reuse. I was guessing when I
suggested that xquery in a browser with a web server might make this
future possible. I've no way of knowing. But maybe one of? you might.

ok, that's it for me on this thread. I'm so far out on a limb it's frightening.

Gary


On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 1:26 PM, Markus Pilman <mpilman@student.ethz.ch> wrote:
>
> Hi Gary,
>
> I surely see your point about XQuery in the browser - as stated before
> by others: check out our project at http://www.xqib.org/
>
> At the moment, the release works only with Internet Explorer - but the
> next release (which is nearly finished - we hope to release it this
> month) will also run with Firefox and will be much faster. Feel free
> to contact me directly, if you are interested in it.
>
> But I wanted to ask you, where exactly you see the usecases of having
> a web server in the browser? To be honest: the last thing I want
> running in my browser is a server (as Michael stated because of
> complexity, but also because of security). Also, in most companies
> (and also on most routers), all ports are normally closed, which makes
> a webserver useless. The only benefit I can see, is that this way it
> would be easy to implement some kind of RPC from the server to the
> client. But in my oppinion, this would be a too small advantage to
> legitimate a webserver.
>
> Regards,
>
> Markus
>
> On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 4:42 PM, Michael Kay<mike@saxonica.com> wrote:
> >
> > There are a lot of people keen on the idea of xquery in the web browser.
> >
> > Unfortunately, though, I think there's a bit of a conflict. A lot of the
> > benefits of the web architecture come from the fact that the browser is
> > small, ubiqitous, and predictable. The more goodies you put in it, the less
> > that remains true. And the less it is true, the harder it is to write
> > applications that will run anywhere and talk to anything. This is why, after
> > ten years, writing applications that rely on XSLT-in-the-browser can still
> > be problematic, as recently discussed on the xml-dev list.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Michael Kay
> > http://www.saxonica.com/
> > http://twitter.com/michaelhkay
> >
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: talk-bounces@x-query.com
> >> [mailto:talk-bounces@x-query.com] On Behalf Of Gary Lewis
> >> Sent: 17 June 2009 15:14
> >> To: talk@x-query.com
> >> Subject: [xquery-talk] xquery & web server in browser
> >>
> >> I'm a new member of the talk list and am uncertain that my
> >> question is appropriate. Please ignore if it is off topic.
> >>
> >> Can anyone comment on the possibility that xquery could be
> >> used as a data integration/mashup tool running in a browser
> >> that included a web server? There's been quite a bit of
> >> excitement the past couple days about the Opera Unite
> >> announcement of its "web server in a web browser" concept. Is
> >> it possible that xquery, as a
> >> query/integration/transformation tool, might someday be a
> >> plugin to a browser (eg, Chrome; Chrome/Wave)?
> >>
> >> I'm asking out of ignorance more than anything. The dots seem
> >> to be there for the connecting, but I guess that's what I'm
> >> asking ... are the dots there, are they likely to be
> >> connected, or is it just wishful ?thinking?
> >>
> >> ?Just so you have some orientation as to where this question
> >> is coming from. I'm basically a data user ... someone who
> >> uses tools like SQL and XQuery and R to do analysis with
> >> data. In the course of doing this, I've stretched into the IT
> >> side of things and designed enterprise data warehouses etc.
> >> So my interest in xquery-in-a-web-server-browser is so I can
> >> do cool things with data.
> >> I'm not interested in actually creating an xquery plugin that
> >> would make this possible. I wouldn't even know how to start.
> >>
> >> Thanks.
> >>
> >> Gary
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> talk@x-query.com
> >> http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > talk@x-query.com
> > http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >

From dflorescu at mac.com  Wed Jun 17 15:00:58 2009
From: dflorescu at mac.com (Daniela Florescu)
Date: Wed Jun 17 14:31:55 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] xquery & web server in browser
In-Reply-To: <1be6002b0906170830q5453ded0t573fd92c8f9b76c1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1be6002b0906170830q5453ded0t573fd92c8f9b76c1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <315D1C24-9E48-4DB3-88BD-ED9110B0CAFB@mac.com>

>
> I'm also familiar with the zorba XQIB project but do not use a Windows
> OS so have not played with it yet. But my impression (probably wrong)
> is that XQIB is cast mostly as an alternative to JavaScript, using
> scripting extensions to XQuery. If true (please let me know
> otherwise), I'm not so much interested in this aspect. As I said
> earlier, I'm mostly interested in a data integration & transformation
> tool that sits in a browser and gets used as a precursor to analysis &
> graphics tools.

Gary,

the xqib people can answer you in more details, but in general, what
they do have is a full embedding of a Zorba xquery processor in the  
browser
-- this includes all the functionalities of Zorba, full XQuery with  
updates and
scripting, XQuery 1.1 with groupby, windowing, try-catch, etc, plus  
the REST,
function libraries.

What users use this XQuery for is there own decision: can be very well  
data integration,
  data transformation, RSS integration, etc, everything is good, as  
long as it can be expressed
in XQuery.


Best regards
Dana
From mike at saxonica.com  Thu Jun 18 00:05:58 2009
From: mike at saxonica.com (Michael Kay)
Date: Wed Jun 17 15:37:05 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] Fwd: xquery & web server in browser
In-Reply-To: <1be6002b0906171346t777539bay1843e998897f3899@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1be6002b0906170713h258f22efy2b274baa04e71777@mail.gmail.com><2DCF3001DBFB4F5A84E591E9A3D44264@Sealion><60f8b5ce0906171026g695d01bcl1b5fe6d5f6efd998@mail.gmail.com><1be6002b0906171329t5e579601rb394db2083d9b21f@mail.gmail.com>
	<1be6002b0906171346t777539bay1843e998897f3899@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <63666144EEC94AEF83DB7F19D1840FE3@Sealion>

> 
> BOUNCED?
> Transmit Report:
> 
>  To: darin@paran.com, 2009/06/18 05:14:29, 452, This mailbox 
> is temporarily disabled. This mailbox is automatically ena
> 

That mailbox has been temporarily disabled, and generating bounce messages
on this list, for years.

Regards,

Michael Kay
http://www.saxonica.com/
http://twitter.com/michaelhkay 

From rob at koberg.com  Wed Jun 17 19:53:56 2009
From: rob at koberg.com (Robert Koberg)
Date: Wed Jun 17 16:24:54 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] xquery & web server in browser
In-Reply-To: <1be6002b0906170713h258f22efy2b274baa04e71777@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1be6002b0906170713h258f22efy2b274baa04e71777@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C0E665B1-584C-4DA1-8641-FA946F9A9F64@koberg.com>


On Jun 17, 2009, at 10:13 AM, Gary Lewis wrote:

> I'm a new member of the talk list and am uncertain that my question is
> appropriate. Please ignore if it is off topic.
>
> Can anyone comment on the possibility that xquery could be used as a
> data integration/mashup tool running in a browser that included a web
> server?

Why? To me, the best thing about XQuery is that it can run natively  
(and more efficiently than the more encompassing XSL) on an XML DB  
providing all the speed and memory efficiency afforded by the  
different and incompatible XML DBs. Caveat emptor: I fall into the  
camp that doesn't believe XQuery is a good styling language or a good  
PHP-like webapp templating language. (if there even is a camp, rather  
than me leaning over a bic lighter)

Running XQuery in the browser seems like a huge waste of bandwidth  
where you would have to download everything you want to query against,  
perhaps to find only a tiny fragment. I would create a URL and just  
GET it from a server where XQuery creates the XML or JSON to be styled  
on the client with XSL or JavaScript (as &deity; intended).


> There's been quite a bit of excitement the past couple days
> about the Opera Unite announcement of its "web server in a web
> browser" concept.

Google's Gears has been around for a while:

http://gears.google.com/

-Rob


> Is it possible that xquery, as a
> query/integration/transformation tool, might someday be a plugin to a
> browser (eg, Chrome; Chrome/Wave)?
>
>
> I'm asking out of ignorance more than anything. The dots seem to be
> there for the connecting, but I guess that's what I'm asking ... are
> the dots there, are they likely to be connected, or is it just wishful
> thinking?
>
> Just so you have some orientation as to where this question is coming
> from. I'm basically a data user ... someone who uses tools like SQL
> and XQuery and R to do analysis with data. In the course of doing
> this, I've stretched into the IT side of things and designed
> enterprise data warehouses etc. So my interest in
> xquery-in-a-web-server-browser is so I can do cool things with data.
> I'm not interested in actually creating an xquery plugin that would
> make this possible. I wouldn't even know how to start.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Gary
> _______________________________________________
> talk@x-query.com
> http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk

From vyacheslav.sedov at gmail.com  Thu Jun 18 10:36:02 2009
From: vyacheslav.sedov at gmail.com (Vyacheslav Sedov)
Date: Wed Jun 17 23:06:59 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] xquery & web server in browser
In-Reply-To: <C0E665B1-584C-4DA1-8641-FA946F9A9F64@koberg.com>
References: <1be6002b0906170713h258f22efy2b274baa04e71777@mail.gmail.com>
	<C0E665B1-584C-4DA1-8641-FA946F9A9F64@koberg.com>
Message-ID: <7ab7cbac0906172236m45b41c42m1d819767d8c5e859@mail.gmail.com>

i think browser can act as proxy server to localhost-based eXist
database (or AMP if somebody still love it)

On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 2:53 AM, Robert Koberg<rob@koberg.com> wrote:
>
> On Jun 17, 2009, at 10:13 AM, Gary Lewis wrote:
>
>> I'm a new member of the talk list and am uncertain that my question is
>> appropriate. Please ignore if it is off topic.
>>
>> Can anyone comment on the possibility that xquery could be used as a
>> data integration/mashup tool running in a browser that included a web
>> server?
>
> Why? To me, the best thing about XQuery is that it can run natively (and
> more efficiently than the more encompassing XSL) on an XML DB providing all
> the speed and memory efficiency afforded by the different and incompatible
> XML DBs. Caveat emptor: I fall into the camp that doesn't believe XQuery is
> a good styling language or a good PHP-like webapp templating language. (if
> there even is a camp, rather than me leaning over a bic lighter)
>
> Running XQuery in the browser seems like a huge waste of bandwidth where you
> would have to download everything you want to query against, perhaps to find
> only a tiny fragment. I would create a URL and just GET it from a server
> where XQuery creates the XML or JSON to be styled on the client with XSL or
> JavaScript (as &deity; intended).
>
>
>> There's been quite a bit of excitement the past couple days
>> about the Opera Unite announcement of its "web server in a web
>> browser" concept.
>
> Google's Gears has been around for a while:
>
> http://gears.google.com/
>
> -Rob
>
>
>> Is it possible that xquery, as a
>> query/integration/transformation tool, might someday be a plugin to a
>> browser (eg, Chrome; Chrome/Wave)?
>>
>>
>> I'm asking out of ignorance more than anything. The dots seem to be
>> there for the connecting, but I guess that's what I'm asking ... are
>> the dots there, are they likely to be connected, or is it just wishful
>> thinking?
>>
>> Just so you have some orientation as to where this question is coming
>> from. I'm basically a data user ... someone who uses tools like SQL
>> and XQuery and R to do analysis with data. In the course of doing
>> this, I've stretched into the IT side of things and designed
>> enterprise data warehouses etc. So my interest in
>> xquery-in-a-web-server-browser is so I can do cool things with data.
>> I'm not interested in actually creating an xquery plugin that would
>> make this possible. I wouldn't even know how to start.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Gary
>> _______________________________________________
>> talk@x-query.com
>> http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk@x-query.com
> http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
From matthias.brantner at 28msec.com  Thu Jun 18 10:41:46 2009
From: matthias.brantner at 28msec.com (Matthias Brantner)
Date: Thu Jun 18 01:12:47 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] xquery & web server in browser
In-Reply-To: <4A3918CE.9020301@as-guides.com>
References: <1be6002b0906170713h258f22efy2b274baa04e71777@mail.gmail.com>
	<ab70ed440906170732v6a053acdocd84627a3187b660@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A3918CE.9020301@as-guides.com>
Message-ID: <035435C1-D9B4-4D61-8CBF-AE07EAAEC31A@28msec.com>

Hello Michael,

let me quickly try to comment on your issues below:

On 17.06.2009, at 18:24, Michael Ludwig wrote:

> Adam Retter schrieb:
>> This may be of interest -
>> http://www.zorba-xquery.com/index.php/xquery-in-the-browser-xqib/
>
> I found this is a bad starting point, because of all the errors.
>
> (1) "text/xqueryp" should probably be "text/xquery"
This is a left-over from the time XQuery Scripting was developed. By  
that time the proposal was called XQueryP (also see http://2006.xmlconference.org/proceedings/38/presentation.pdf 
  for moe information). In the latest XQIB release, only "text/xquery"  
works. I have fixed this.

> (2) XHTML namespace not declared in XQuery (not necessary?)
This is not necessary. For convenience, XQIB declares the XHTML  
namespace implicitly.

> (3) H1 should be h1 - but then apparently it shouldn't? Bizarrely,
>    //H1 works while //h1 doesn't.
This is a well-known problem. HTML is case insensitive while XHTML is  
not (lower-case). In its internal DOM, Internet Explorer stores all  
element names in upper-case letters. Since XQuery is case sensitive,  
this requires local names to be written in upper case. This is also  
the case for HTML in Firefox.

> (4) typographical quotes lead to non-recognition of XQuery <script>
You're right! This is due to the formatting done by the content  
management system on zorba-xquery.com.

> This is better to get started: http://www.xqib.org/samples/
Again right! The article mentioned above (i.e. on zorba-xquery.com) is  
meant to be a brief description of the XQIB project and not a tutorial.

Best regards

Matthias
From lists at fgeorges.org  Thu Jun 18 12:53:13 2009
From: lists at fgeorges.org (Florent Georges)
Date: Thu Jun 18 04:53:17 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] xquery & web server in browser
Message-ID: <170727.18955.qm@web23008.mail.ird.yahoo.com>


Robert Koberg wrote:

  Hi Robert,

> Why? To me, the best thing about XQuery is that it can run
> natively (and more efficiently than the more encompassing
> XSL)

  Well, I think it depends (I mean XQuery more efficient
than XSLT.)  If the query use dynamic dispatching of nodes
(aka pattern matching) or grouping, I would expect XSLT to
be more efficient.

  But that's just a feeling, I do not have any numbers.

  Regards,

-- 
Florent Georges
http://www.fgeorges.org/






















      


From rob at koberg.com  Thu Jun 18 09:33:00 2009
From: rob at koberg.com (Robert Koberg)
Date: Thu Jun 18 05:33:03 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] xquery & web server in browser
In-Reply-To: <170727.18955.qm@web23008.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
References: <170727.18955.qm@web23008.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8319938B-0C49-44D9-8382-7A6BC1EE6DD3@koberg.com>


Hi,

On Jun 18, 2009, at 7:53 AM, Florent Georges wrote:

>
> Robert Koberg wrote:
>
>  Hi Robert,
>
>> Why? To me, the best thing about XQuery is that it can run
>> natively (and more efficiently than the more encompassing
>> XSL)
>
>  Well, I think it depends (I mean XQuery more efficient
> than XSLT.)  If the query use dynamic dispatching of nodes
> (aka pattern matching) or grouping, I would expect XSLT to
> be more efficient.
>
>  But that's just a feeling, I do not have any numbers.

I was talking about the ability for the XML DB vendors finding it  
easier to have XQuery run natively in their DBs as opposed to XSL.

-Rob



>
>
>  Regards,
>
> -- 
> Florent Georges
> http://www.fgeorges.org/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk@x-query.com
> http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk

From dlee at calldei.com  Thu Jun 18 09:34:54 2009
From: dlee at calldei.com (David A. Lee)
Date: Thu Jun 18 05:35:27 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] xquery & web server in browser
In-Reply-To: <170727.18955.qm@web23008.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
References: <170727.18955.qm@web23008.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4A3A346E.1030707@calldei.com>

I believe from context Robert was referring to XQuery implementations at 
the DB/Server level which can take advantage of server side indexing etc.
I think thats what he means by "runs natively"
Compared to XSLT implementations which read the document into the 
"client" then process it.

Even given this though, I think its a stretch to say its universally 
more efficient.  For example I have real world test cases of XQuery 
which run on a high performance XML server "natively" and run 5x slower 
then the exact same XQuery running in the client (on the same machine).
So I can assert that just because something runs "natively on the 
server" doesn't always mean its faster.
It *should be* though ! But its not always true in reality.

-David




David A. Lee
dlee@calldei.com  
http://www.calldei.com
http://www.xmlsh.org
812-482-5224



Florent Georges wrote:
> Robert Koberg wrote:
>
>   Hi Robert,
>
>   
>> Why? To me, the best thing about XQuery is that it can run
>> natively (and more efficiently than the more encompassing
>> XSL)
>>     
>
>   Well, I think it depends (I mean XQuery more efficient
> than XSLT.)  If the query use dynamic dispatching of nodes
> (aka pattern matching) or grouping, I would expect XSLT to
> be more efficient.
>
>   But that's just a feeling, I do not have any numbers.
>
>   Regards,
>
>   
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From liam at w3.org  Thu Jun 18 12:19:37 2009
From: liam at w3.org (Liam Quin)
Date: Thu Jun 18 08:19:40 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] xquery & web server in browser
In-Reply-To: <170727.18955.qm@web23008.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
References: <170727.18955.qm@web23008.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20090618151937.GS16325@w3.org>

On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 11:53:13AM +0000, Florent Georges wrote:
> Robert Koberg wrote:
> > Why? To me, the best thing about XQuery is that it can run
> > natively (and more efficiently than the more encompassing
> > XSL)

The XQuery implementations in SQL databases such as IBM DB2
and Oracle can go directly to the underlying data store,
bypassing the SQL layer.

>   Well, I think it depends (I mean XQuery more efficient
> than XSLT.)  If the query use dynamic dispatching of nodes
> (aka pattern matching) or grouping, I would expect XSLT to
> be more efficient.

I don't think there's any difference here.

If you're using apply-templates, that's native in XSLT and
you have to write your own in XQuery, so that may make a
difference.  Efficiency is something you have to measure,
though, not speculate upon, really... and all I can say
there is I've found two orders of magnitude between XQuery
runtimes for the same query on the same data, but that's not
uncommon for SQL queries either.

Liam


-- 
Liam Quin, W3C XML Activity Lead, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/
http://www.holoweb.net/~liam/ * http://www.fromoldbooks.org/
From mlu at as-guides.com  Thu Jun 18 18:21:21 2009
From: mlu at as-guides.com (Michael Ludwig)
Date: Thu Jun 18 08:21:27 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] xquery & web server in browser
In-Reply-To: <4A3A346E.1030707@calldei.com>
References: <170727.18955.qm@web23008.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
	<4A3A346E.1030707@calldei.com>
Message-ID: <4A3A5B71.6010802@as-guides.com>

David A. Lee schrieb:
> [...] I have real world test cases of XQuery which run on a high
> performance XML server "natively" and run 5x slower then the exact
> same XQuery running in the client (on the same machine). So I can
> assert that just because something runs "natively on the server"
> doesn't always mean its faster.

Runs Natively (TM) - to be defined, by the actual implementation.

For example, the implementation may excel at retrieving certain nodes
out of millions of others - but it may not use indexes for sorting,
or may be required to do more work when constructing content.

Exploring the strong and weak spots of the particular implementation
allows you to decide how to best repartition your workload among
available layers, and shift work to server-side or client-side
post-processing. Because it may be more efficient.

It's good to have that flexibility. There is no need to have any
single engine do all the work.

Michael Ludwig
From gary.m.lewis at gmail.com  Thu Jun 18 14:26:54 2009
From: gary.m.lewis at gmail.com (Gary Lewis)
Date: Thu Jun 18 10:26:59 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] thank you & a request [Re: xquery & web server in
	browser]
Message-ID: <1be6002b0906181026t600d918by8724494ee67421af@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks to all of you who responded to my question yesterday. It was a
gracious welcome to a newcomer.

The conversation yesterday helped me. Just getting oriented sometimes
is a big hurdle, so I appreciate the time you all took in reply.

I do have a request. I think that others would benefit from the
conversation as well. I took the liberty of editing the conversation
into a thread-sequenced transcript. I'd like to include this
transcript in a blog post. But first I want to check that I'm not
violating any terms of use for the list, or making anyone
uncomfortable. The transcript does not identify anyone by name, nor
does it include any topics not directly relevant to my original
question, but it does include direct quotes. And I'm very leery about
quotes and intellectual property in general.

Hence the request. The link below will take you to a preview of the
blog post I drafted. The transcript is included about half way into
it. Please take a look and let me know if you think it is a fair use.
I believe it is, but I want to make sure.

http://garymlewis.com/instchg/?p=980&preview=true

Thanks again.
Gary
From gary.m.lewis at gmail.com  Thu Jun 18 15:09:35 2009
From: gary.m.lewis at gmail.com (Gary Lewis)
Date: Thu Jun 18 11:09:39 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] thank you & a request [Re: xquery & web server in 
	browser]
In-Reply-To: <4A3A7B0A.7080300@calldei.com>
References: <1be6002b0906181026t600d918by8724494ee67421af@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A3A7B0A.7080300@calldei.com>
Message-ID: <1be6002b0906181109h559e13d5pa33b975169681cca@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks, David. I believe the following link will work. If not, can you let
me know?

http://garymlewis.com/instchg/public/preview/xq.html

Gary


On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 1:36 PM, David A. Lee <dlee@calldei.com> wrote:

> This link doesn't work for me:
>
> http://garymlewis.com/instchg/?p=980&preview=true
>
> David A. Lee
> dlee@calldei.com  http://www.calldei.com
> http://www.xmlsh.org
> 812-482-5224
>
>
>
> Gary Lewis wrote:
>
>> Thanks to all of you who responded to my question yesterday. It was a
>> gracious welcome to a newcomer.
>>
>> The conversation yesterday helped me. Just getting oriented sometimes
>> is a big hurdle, so I appreciate the time you all took in reply.
>>
>> I do have a request. I think that others would benefit from the
>> conversation as well. I took the liberty of editing the conversation
>> into a thread-sequenced transcript. I'd like to include this
>> transcript in a blog post. But first I want to check that I'm not
>> violating any terms of use for the list, or making anyone
>> uncomfortable. The transcript does not identify anyone by name, nor
>> does it include any topics not directly relevant to my original
>> question, but it does include direct quotes. And I'm very leery about
>> quotes and intellectual property in general.
>>
>> Hence the request. The link below will take you to a preview of the
>> blog post I drafted. The transcript is included about half way into
>> it. Please take a look and let me know if you think it is a fair use.
>> I believe it is, but I want to make sure.
>>
>> http://garymlewis.com/instchg/?p=980&preview=true
>>
>> Thanks again.
>> Gary
>> _______________________________________________
>> talk@x-query.com
>> http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>>
>
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From rpbourret at rpbourret.com  Thu Jun 18 13:04:30 2009
From: rpbourret at rpbourret.com (Ronald Bourret)
Date: Thu Jun 18 12:04:37 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] xquery & web server in browser
In-Reply-To: <C0E665B1-584C-4DA1-8641-FA946F9A9F64@koberg.com>
References: <1be6002b0906170713h258f22efy2b274baa04e71777@mail.gmail.com>
	<C0E665B1-584C-4DA1-8641-FA946F9A9F64@koberg.com>
Message-ID: <4A3A8FBE.3020007@rpbourret.com>

Robert Koberg wrote:
> Running XQuery in the browser seems like a huge waste of bandwidth where 
> you would have to download everything you want to query against, perhaps 
> to find only a tiny fragment. I would create a URL and just GET it from 
> a server where XQuery creates the XML or JSON to be styled on the client 
> with XSL or JavaScript (as &deity; intended).

It could make sense in an AJAX-like scenario, where you want to make 
multiple queries against the data. Obviously, this would depend on the 
size of the data set, the speed of the connection, etc.

-- Ron
From lists at fgeorges.org  Thu Jun 18 21:04:42 2009
From: lists at fgeorges.org (Florent Georges)
Date: Thu Jun 18 13:04:47 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] xquery & web server in browser
Message-ID: <297382.21779.qm@web23005.mail.ird.yahoo.com>


Robert Koberg wrote:

> >> Why? To me, the best thing about XQuery is that it can run
> >> natively (and more efficiently than the more encompassing
> >> XSL)

> >? Well, I think it depends (I mean XQuery more efficient
> > than XSLT.)? If the query use dynamic dispatching of nodes
> > (aka pattern matching) or grouping, I would expect XSLT to
> > be more efficient.

> >? But that's just a feeling, I do not have any numbers.

> I was talking about the ability for the XML DB vendors finding it? 
> easier to have XQuery run natively in their DBs as opposed to XSL.

  Yes, but I wonder why XQuery would be more efficient than XSLT "natively on the server"?

  I would expect them to be as efficient as the other, excepted that XQuery module system could ease compilation, and on the other hand XSLT facility for grouping and pattern matching that should benefits runtime for those features (opposed to writing them by hand in XQuery.)

  Regards,

-- 
Florent Georges
http://www.fgeorges.org/




















      


From lists at fgeorges.org  Thu Jun 18 21:10:07 2009
From: lists at fgeorges.org (Florent Georges)
Date: Thu Jun 18 13:10:10 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] xquery & web server in browser
Message-ID: <174128.81126.qm@web23008.mail.ird.yahoo.com>


David A. Lee wrote:

> I believe from context Robert was referring to XQuery
> implementations at the DB/Server level which can take advantage
> of server side indexing etc.

> I think thats what he means by "runs natively"

> Compared to XSLT implementations which read the document into the
> "client" then process it.

  Yes, I got that :-)  But I think this is biased to present client- vs. server- side as being XQuery vs.. XSLT.

  Regards,

-- 
Florent Georges
http://www.fgeorges.org/






















      


From john.snelson at oracle.com  Thu Jun 18 22:24:16 2009
From: john.snelson at oracle.com (John Snelson)
Date: Thu Jun 18 13:24:31 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] xquery & web server in browser
In-Reply-To: <297382.21779.qm@web23005.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
References: <297382.21779.qm@web23005.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4A3AA270.2000507@oracle.com>

Florent Georges wrote:
> Robert Koberg wrote:
>> I was talking about the ability for the XML DB vendors finding it  
>> easier to have XQuery run natively in their DBs as opposed to XSL.
> 
>   Yes, but I wonder why XQuery would be more efficient than XSLT "natively on the server"?
> 
>   I would expect them to be as efficient as the other, excepted that XQuery module system could ease compilation, and on the other hand XSLT facility for grouping and pattern matching that should benefits runtime for those features (opposed to writing them by hand in XQuery.)

The problem is the dynamic dispatch in XSLT - you can't know at compile 
time which template will be invoked where. This is a problem because:

1) You generally can't get accurate static type information across 
template application.
2) You generally can't optimize across template application boundaries.

I think these aren't necessarily as much of an issue has they have 
traditionally been thought as. On the one hand we are seeing a number of 
schema-less XML databases, which rely less on static typing. On the 
other, I think that most XSLT stylesheets wouldn't benefit all that much 
from optimization across template application boundaries anyhow.

John

-- 
John Snelson, Oracle Corporation            http://snelson.org.uk/john
Berkeley DB XML:            http://oracle.com/database/berkeley-db/xml
XQilla:                                  http://xqilla.sourceforge.net
From rob at koberg.com  Thu Jun 18 19:59:44 2009
From: rob at koberg.com (Robert Koberg)
Date: Thu Jun 18 15:59:48 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] xquery & web server in browser
In-Reply-To: <297382.21779.qm@web23005.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
References: <297382.21779.qm@web23005.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9129BB25-3B1B-45B2-A2EF-2CF9180A7296@koberg.com>


On Jun 18, 2009, at 4:04 PM, Florent Georges wrote:

>
> Robert Koberg wrote:
>
>>>> Why? To me, the best thing about XQuery is that it can run
>>>> natively (and more efficiently than the more encompassing
>>>> XSL)
>
>>>   Well, I think it depends (I mean XQuery more efficient
>>> than XSLT.)  If the query use dynamic dispatching of nodes
>>> (aka pattern matching) or grouping, I would expect XSLT to
>>> be more efficient.
>
>>>   But that's just a feeling, I do not have any numbers.
>
>> I was talking about the ability for the XML DB vendors finding it
>> easier to have XQuery run natively in their DBs as opposed to XSL.
>
>  Yes, but I wonder why XQuery would be more efficient than XSLT  
> "natively on the server"?

This is what I meant by 'running natively' on an XML DB:

Most basically because XQuery, running natively on an XML DB, does not  
need to serialize out a DOMish object to work on. XSLT does.

Say you want to do a transformation using data from your entire DB or  
files. For XSLT you would need to load all documents into memory. With  
XQuery on an XML DB, you don't.

I would love to have XSL run natively.

best,
-Rob


>
>
>  I would expect them to be as efficient as the other, excepted that  
> XQuery module system could ease compilation, and on the other hand  
> XSLT facility for grouping and pattern matching that should benefits  
> runtime for those features (opposed to writing them by hand in  
> XQuery.)
>
>  Regards,
>
> -- 
> Florent Georges
> http://www.fgeorges.org/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

From rob at koberg.com  Thu Jun 18 20:03:39 2009
From: rob at koberg.com (Robert Koberg)
Date: Thu Jun 18 16:03:42 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] xquery & web server in browser
In-Reply-To: <4A3AA270.2000507@oracle.com>
References: <297382.21779.qm@web23005.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
	<4A3AA270.2000507@oracle.com>
Message-ID: <54430466-E50F-46DC-8EDC-DC0D2B0F8C92@koberg.com>


On Jun 18, 2009, at 4:24 PM, John Snelson wrote:

> Florent Georges wrote:
>> Robert Koberg wrote:
>>> I was talking about the ability for the XML DB vendors finding it   
>>> easier to have XQuery run natively in their DBs as opposed to XSL.
>>  Yes, but I wonder why XQuery would be more efficient than XSLT  
>> "natively on the server"?
>>  I would expect them to be as efficient as the other, excepted that  
>> XQuery module system could ease compilation, and on the other hand  
>> XSLT facility for grouping and pattern matching that should  
>> benefits runtime for those features (opposed to writing them by  
>> hand in XQuery.)
>
> The problem is the dynamic dispatch in XSLT - you can't know at  
> compile time which template will be invoked where. This is a problem  
> because:
>
> 1) You generally can't get accurate static type information across  
> template application.
> 2) You generally can't optimize across template application  
> boundaries.
>
> I think these aren't necessarily as much of an issue has they have  
> traditionally been thought as. On the one hand we are seeing a  
> number of schema-less XML databases, which rely less on static  
> typing. On the other, I think that most XSLT stylesheets wouldn't  
> benefit all that much from optimization across template application  
> boundaries anyhow.

What XSL would benefit from is not having to load each document into  
memory. Ideally I would use XQuery to gather the requested parts of  
various documents in the existing structure/schema. Then, allow XSL to  
transform the XQuery builtup nodeset without having to create some  
DOMish (even if it is the XSL processor's optimized DOM) object.

best,
-Rob

From rob at koberg.com  Thu Jun 18 20:06:38 2009
From: rob at koberg.com (Robert Koberg)
Date: Thu Jun 18 16:06:43 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] xquery & web server in browser
In-Reply-To: <20090618151937.GS16325@w3.org>
References: <170727.18955.qm@web23008.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
	<20090618151937.GS16325@w3.org>
Message-ID: <8CB01F2D-2840-47BE-9A22-AFEB91EF2548@koberg.com>


On Jun 18, 2009, at 11:19 AM, Liam Quin wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 11:53:13AM +0000, Florent Georges wrote:
>> Robert Koberg wrote:
>>> Why? To me, the best thing about XQuery is that it can run
>>> natively (and more efficiently than the more encompassing
>>> XSL)
>
> The XQuery implementations in SQL databases such as IBM DB2
> and Oracle can go directly to the underlying data store,
> bypassing the SQL layer.
>
>>  Well, I think it depends (I mean XQuery more efficient
>> than XSLT.)  If the query use dynamic dispatching of nodes
>> (aka pattern matching) or grouping, I would expect XSLT to
>> be more efficient.
>
> I don't think there's any difference here.
>
> If you're using apply-templates, that's native in XSLT and
> you have to write your own in XQuery, so that may make a
> difference.  Efficiency is something you have to measure,
> though, not speculate upon, really... and all I can say
> there is I've found two orders of magnitude between XQuery
> runtimes for the same query on the same data, but that's not
> uncommon for SQL queries either.

Sorry, I was not clear with what I meant by running natively. I mean  
that a transformation (XQuery or XSL) can occur straight on the XML DB  
with converting to something the processor (XQuery or XSL) can consume.

best,
-Rob
From lists at fgeorges.org  Fri Jun 19 01:23:38 2009
From: lists at fgeorges.org (Florent Georges)
Date: Thu Jun 18 17:23:42 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] xquery & web server in browser
Message-ID: <933660.93163.qm@web23004.mail.ird.yahoo.com>


John Snelson wrote:

> The problem is the dynamic dispatch in XSLT - you can't
> know at compile time which template will be invoked where.
> This is a problem because:

> 1) You generally can't get accurate static type information
> across template application.
> 2) You generally can't optimize across template application
> boundaries.

> I think these aren't necessarily as much of an issue has
> they have traditionally been thought as.

  Yes.  My guess is that this could become a problem as third-party XSLT libraries will become to be more and more used.  Even if such a library is installed once, it couldn't be compiled once at the global level.  It should be compiled once for each stylesheet using it, unless some assumptions can be verified.

  Maybe XSLT 2.1 will provide some way to handle that problem.  But as you said, this is not clear that's something useful.  Wait and (maybe) see...

  Regarding dynamism of a query, first-class function items will be very interesting.  That's not the same thing as being able to overload a template rule, but that will provide a module the ability to change the behavior of an imported module (in some explicitly defined ways though.)

  Regards,

-- 
Florent Georges
http://www.fgeorges.org/






















      


From lists at fgeorges.org  Fri Jun 19 01:05:41 2009
From: lists at fgeorges.org (Florent Georges)
Date: Thu Jun 18 17:32:25 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] xquery & web server in browser
Message-ID: <68072.88499.qm@web23006.mail.ird.yahoo.com>


Robert Koberg wrote:

> Ideally I would use XQuery to gather the requested parts of
> various documents in the existing structure/schema. Then, allow
> XSL to transform the XQuery builtup nodeset without having to
> create some DOMish (even if it is the XSL processor's optimized
> DOM) object.

  But XSLT does not rely on DOM (or on anything "DOMish.")  XSLT
does work, like XQuery, on XDM instances.  I know a very good
XQuery engine that evaluates queries against documents in memory.
I am not sure there is an XSLT implementation working on an XML
database (I mean directly on the nodes in the database,) but I
know eXist has some support for XSLT (I don't know if it accesses
nodes directly from the database or if it works on an in-memory
tree.)

  I just think this is not correct to oppose XQuery and XSLT when
the point is server-side vs. client-side.

  Regards,

-- 
Florent Georges
http://www.fgeorges.org/





















      


From rob at koberg.com  Thu Jun 18 22:10:47 2009
From: rob at koberg.com (Robert Koberg)
Date: Thu Jun 18 18:10:53 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] xquery & web server in browser
In-Reply-To: <933660.93163.qm@web23004.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
References: <933660.93163.qm@web23004.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <D5808896-8BAA-4D3D-A1FC-7CBEA000432F@koberg.com>


On Jun 18, 2009, at 8:23 PM, Florent Georges wrote:

>
> John Snelson wrote:
>
>> The problem is the dynamic dispatch in XSLT - you can't
>> know at compile time which template will be invoked where.
>> This is a problem because:
>
>> 1) You generally can't get accurate static type information
>> across template application.
>> 2) You generally can't optimize across template application
>> boundaries.
>
>> I think these aren't necessarily as much of an issue has
>> they have traditionally been thought as.
>
>  Yes.  My guess is that this could become a problem as third-party  
> XSLT libraries will become to be more and more used.  Even if such a  
> library is installed once, it couldn't be compiled once at the  
> global level.  It should be compiled once for each stylesheet using  
> it,

But, I think the point is (and the beauty of XSL) you can't know the  
templates applied based on the XSL, rather it would be based on the  
source XML, and the source xml can vary. An XSL can behave radically  
different based on the source XML being fed to it.

-Rob


> unless some assumptions can be verified.
>
>  Maybe XSLT 2.1 will provide some way to handle that problem.  But  
> as you said, this is not clear that's something useful.  Wait and  
> (maybe) see...
>
>  Regarding dynamism of a query, first-class function items will be  
> very interesting.  That's not the same thing as being able to  
> overload a template rule, but that will provide a module the ability  
> to change the behavior of an imported module (in some explicitly  
> defined ways though.)
>
>  Regards,
>
> -- 
> Florent Georges
> http://www.fgeorges.org/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

From liam at w3.org  Fri Jun 19 00:25:26 2009
From: liam at w3.org (Liam Quin)
Date: Thu Jun 18 20:25:29 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] xquery & web server in browser
In-Reply-To: <8CB01F2D-2840-47BE-9A22-AFEB91EF2548@koberg.com>
References: <170727.18955.qm@web23008.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
	<20090618151937.GS16325@w3.org>
	<8CB01F2D-2840-47BE-9A22-AFEB91EF2548@koberg.com>
Message-ID: <20090619032526.GU16325@w3.org>

On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 07:06:38PM -0400, Robert Koberg wrote:
> Sorry, I was not clear with what I meant by running natively. I mean  
> that a transformation (XQuery or XSL) can occur straight on the XML DB  
> with converting to something the processor (XQuery or XSL) can consume.

I see. Yes, there are both relational and XML-native databases that can
work that way.

Liam



-- 
Liam Quin, W3C XML Activity Lead, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/
http://www.holoweb.net/~liam/ * http://www.fromoldbooks.org/
From derstubbi at gmx.de  Fri Jun 19 11:33:23 2009
From: derstubbi at gmx.de (derstubbi@gmx.de)
Date: Fri Jun 19 01:33:27 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] XQuery - RegEx Pattern Matcher
Message-ID: <20090619083323.111850@gmx.net>

Hi,
I am trying to use a RegEx within XQuery. In general that works fine.
Now I have a more complex RegEx to work with CSV-files(these CSV have ";" as separator).
I use can the following without problems in Java :

Pattern Regex = Pattern.compile(
"\\G(?:^|;)(?:\"((?:[^\"]|\"\")*)\"|([^\";]*))");
...

But in XQuery
let $regularExpr :='\\G(?:^|;)(?:\"((?:[^\"]|\"\")*)\"|([^\";]*))'
...
if (matches($row,$regularExpr) ) then ( ...

just gives the error :

Error at character 4 in regular expression "\\G(?:^|;)(?:\"((?:[^\"]|\"\")...": expected ())


I tried the optional flags (i, x, ...) but always with the same result...
What is wrong with this RegEx ?

P.S. :I run the XQuery from Java with Saxon.


-- 
GMX FreeDSL Komplettanschluss mit DSL 6.000 Flatrate und Telefonanschluss
f?r nur 17,95 Euro/mtl.!* http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl02
From john.snelson at oracle.com  Fri Jun 19 10:43:43 2009
From: john.snelson at oracle.com (John Snelson)
Date: Fri Jun 19 01:44:14 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] xquery & web server in browser
In-Reply-To: <933660.93163.qm@web23004.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
References: <933660.93163.qm@web23004.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4A3B4FBF.40104@oracle.com>

Florent Georges wrote:
>   Regarding dynamism of a query, first-class function items will be very interesting.  That's not the same thing as being able to overload a template rule, but that will provide a module the ability to change the behavior of an imported module (in some explicitly defined ways though.)

Yes - higher order functions will make this more interesting. I'm 
expecting that partial evaluation and specialization of such functions 
will go a long way to removing some of the problems with the dynamic 
dispatch.

John

-- 
John Snelson, Oracle Corporation            http://snelson.org.uk/john
Berkeley DB XML:            http://oracle.com/database/berkeley-db/xml
XQilla:                                  http://xqilla.sourceforge.net
From adam.retter at googlemail.com  Fri Jun 19 11:17:10 2009
From: adam.retter at googlemail.com (Adam Retter)
Date: Fri Jun 19 02:17:12 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] xquery & web server in browser
In-Reply-To: <68072.88499.qm@web23006.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
References: <68072.88499.qm@web23006.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ab70ed440906190217t38139790x1255fb1952ada1f9@mail.gmail.com>

> I am not sure there is an XSLT implementation working on an XML
> database (I mean directly on the nodes in the database,) but I
> know eXist has some support for XSLT (I don't know if it accesses
> nodes directly from the database or if it works on an in-memory
> tree.)

eXist currently replies on either Xalan or Saxon to provide XSLT
support. However a native XSLT processor is under development and will
be able to interact directly with the database. Many of the XQuery
functions we have,are easily applied to XSLT as well and can be
refactored into more generic XPath functions.


-- 
Adam Retter

sip:adam.retter@ekiga.net
http://www.adamretter.org.uk
From mike at saxonica.com  Fri Jun 19 11:20:30 2009
From: mike at saxonica.com (Michael Kay)
Date: Fri Jun 19 02:20:35 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] XQuery - RegEx Pattern Matcher
In-Reply-To: <20090619083323.111850@gmx.net>
References: <20090619083323.111850@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <47B17EC9790C4DC8956C8976A090E31A@Sealion>


The XPath regular expression language does not recognize \G and it does not
recognize non-capturing groups. 

As far as matches() is concerned, there is no distinction between capturing
and non-capturing groups, so replace "(?:" by "(".

I suspect you wanted your regex to contain "\G". In Java you need to escape
this as "\\G"; in XPath/XQuery, backslash is not a special character and
does not need to be escaped. However, there's no "\G" in XPath regular
expressions anyway. In Java it means "the end of the previous match"; but
XQuery is a functional language, so "previous" is meaningless. At this stage
I give up because I'm not sure what you are trying to do: you haven't
supplied enough of your code.

Regards,

Michael Kay
http://www.saxonica.com/
http://twitter.com/michaelhkay  

> -----Original Message-----
> From: talk-bounces@x-query.com 
> [mailto:talk-bounces@x-query.com] On Behalf Of derstubbi@gmx.de
> Sent: 19 June 2009 09:33
> To: talk@xquery.com
> Subject: [xquery-talk] XQuery - RegEx Pattern Matcher
> 
> Hi,
> I am trying to use a RegEx within XQuery. In general that works fine.
> Now I have a more complex RegEx to work with CSV-files(these 
> CSV have ";" as separator).
> I use can the following without problems in Java :
> 
> Pattern Regex = Pattern.compile(
> "\\G(?:^|;)(?:\"((?:[^\"]|\"\")*)\"|([^\";]*))");
> ...
> 
> But in XQuery
> let $regularExpr :='\\G(?:^|;)(?:\"((?:[^\"]|\"\")*)\"|([^\";]*))'
> ...
> if (matches($row,$regularExpr) ) then ( ...
> 
> just gives the error :
> 
> Error at character 4 in regular expression 
> "\\G(?:^|;)(?:\"((?:[^\"]|\"\")...": expected ())
> 
> 
> I tried the optional flags (i, x, ...) but always with the 
> same result...
> What is wrong with this RegEx ?
> 
> P.S. :I run the XQuery from Java with Saxon.
> 
> 
> --
> GMX FreeDSL Komplettanschluss mit DSL 6.000 Flatrate und 
> Telefonanschluss f?r nur 17,95 Euro/mtl.!* 
> http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl02 
> _______________________________________________
> talk@x-query.com
> http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk


From andrew.j.welch at gmail.com  Fri Jun 19 11:30:25 2009
From: andrew.j.welch at gmail.com (Andrew Welch)
Date: Fri Jun 19 02:30:28 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] xquery & web server in browser
In-Reply-To: <68072.88499.qm@web23006.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
References: <68072.88499.qm@web23006.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <74a894af0906190230t2e4b944ieeff55c412a3d093@mail.gmail.com>

2009/6/19 Florent Georges <lists@fgeorges.org>:
>
> Robert Koberg wrote:
>
>> Ideally I would use XQuery to gather the requested parts of
>> various documents in the existing structure/schema. Then, allow
>> XSL to transform the XQuery builtup nodeset without having to
>> create some DOMish (even if it is the XSL processor's optimized
>> DOM) object.
>
> ?But XSLT does not rely on DOM (or on anything "DOMish.") ?XSLT
> does work, like XQuery, on XDM instances. ?I know a very good
> XQuery engine that evaluates queries against documents in memory.
> I am not sure there is an XSLT implementation working on an XML
> database (I mean directly on the nodes in the database,) but I
> know eXist has some support for XSLT (I don't know if it accesses
> nodes directly from the database or if it works on an in-memory
> tree.)

What Rob means (if can speak for him, we've talked about this before a
few times :) is that currently if you construct an xhtml page using
xslt, which calls xquery to build the input from an xml db (such as
using doc()  to call eXist's rest interface) then this happens:

xml db -> xquery -> xml doc -> xslt -> xhtml

...an intermediary xml document is constructed.

Hopefully this step will be removed soon when xslt can talk directly
to the database, or at least operate on the result of a query without
the serialisation/parse step.

Also, I'm looking forward to standalone runnable transforms, so I can
map a url to a stylesheet and have its "main" named template run...  I
guess/hope eXist will do something like this too.


-- 
Andrew Welch
http://andrewjwelch.com
Kernow: http://kernowforsaxon.sf.net/

From derstubbi at gmx.de  Fri Jun 19 13:29:18 2009
From: derstubbi at gmx.de (derstubbi@gmx.de)
Date: Fri Jun 19 03:29:22 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] XQuery - RegEx Pattern Matcher
In-Reply-To: <47B17EC9790C4DC8956C8976A090E31A@Sealion>
References: <20090619083323.111850@gmx.net>
	<47B17EC9790C4DC8956C8976A090E31A@Sealion>
Message-ID: <20090619102918.66070@gmx.net>

I am trying to "read" CSV data like this :

one;"two;stilltwo";three;"four;stillfour";five

this should resolve in something like this :
...
<element>one</element>
<element>two;stilltwo</element>
<element>three</element>
<element>four;stillfour</element>
<element>five</element>
...

if there is no separator(";") allowed within a text it is easy with just splitting a line with ";".

But if there can be a ";" as a text, than I have to use RegEx.
I succeded in finding a XQuery-RegEx if in one line there is only one case where a ";" is used as text.

But I need to find every match, so I used the \\G . Worked fine, so I hoped to reuse it in XQuery...



-------- Original-Nachricht --------
> Datum: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 10:20:30 +0100
> Von: "Michael Kay" <mike@saxonica.com>
> An: derstubbi@gmx.de, talk@xquery.com
> Betreff: RE: [xquery-talk] XQuery - RegEx Pattern Matcher

> 
> The XPath regular expression language does not recognize \G and it does
> not
> recognize non-capturing groups. 
> 
> As far as matches() is concerned, there is no distinction between
> capturing
> and non-capturing groups, so replace "(?:" by "(".
> 
> I suspect you wanted your regex to contain "\G". In Java you need to
> escape
> this as "\\G"; in XPath/XQuery, backslash is not a special character and
> does not need to be escaped. However, there's no "\G" in XPath regular
> expressions anyway. In Java it means "the end of the previous match"; but
> XQuery is a functional language, so "previous" is meaningless. At this
> stage
> I give up because I'm not sure what you are trying to do: you haven't
> supplied enough of your code.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Michael Kay
> http://www.saxonica.com/
> http://twitter.com/michaelhkay  
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: talk-bounces@x-query.com 
> > [mailto:talk-bounces@x-query.com] On Behalf Of derstubbi@gmx.de
> > Sent: 19 June 2009 09:33
> > To: talk@xquery.com
> > Subject: [xquery-talk] XQuery - RegEx Pattern Matcher
> > 
> > Hi,
> > I am trying to use a RegEx within XQuery. In general that works fine.
> > Now I have a more complex RegEx to work with CSV-files(these 
> > CSV have ";" as separator).
> > I use can the following without problems in Java :
> > 
> > Pattern Regex = Pattern.compile(
> > "\\G(?:^|;)(?:\"((?:[^\"]|\"\")*)\"|([^\";]*))");
> > ...
> > 
> > But in XQuery
> > let $regularExpr :='\\G(?:^|;)(?:\"((?:[^\"]|\"\")*)\"|([^\";]*))'
> > ...
> > if (matches($row,$regularExpr) ) then ( ...
> > 
> > just gives the error :
> > 
> > Error at character 4 in regular expression 
> > "\\G(?:^|;)(?:\"((?:[^\"]|\"\")...": expected ())
> > 
> > 
> > I tried the optional flags (i, x, ...) but always with the 
> > same result...
> > What is wrong with this RegEx ?
> > 
> > P.S. :I run the XQuery from Java with Saxon.
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > GMX FreeDSL Komplettanschluss mit DSL 6.000 Flatrate und 
> > Telefonanschluss f?r nur 17,95 Euro/mtl.!* 
> > http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl02 
> > _______________________________________________
> > talk@x-query.com
> > http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> talk@x-query.com
> http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk

-- 
GMX FreeDSL Komplettanschluss mit DSL 6.000 Flatrate und Telefonanschluss
f?r nur 17,95 Euro/mtl.!* http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl02
From andrew.j.welch at gmail.com  Fri Jun 19 12:45:02 2009
From: andrew.j.welch at gmail.com (Andrew Welch)
Date: Fri Jun 19 03:45:05 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] XQuery - RegEx Pattern Matcher
In-Reply-To: <20090619102918.66070@gmx.net>
References: <20090619083323.111850@gmx.net>
	<47B17EC9790C4DC8956C8976A090E31A@Sealion>
	<20090619102918.66070@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <74a894af0906190345i68662aebhef2087369b0ddfb2@mail.gmail.com>

Have look at this, it should be easy enough to convert to xquery:

http://andrewjwelch.com/code/xslt/csv/csv-to-xml_v2.html

cheers
andrew

2009/6/19  <derstubbi@gmx.de>:
> I am trying to "read" CSV data like this :
>
> one;"two;stilltwo";three;"four;stillfour";five
>
> this should resolve in something like this :
> ...
> <element>one</element>
> <element>two;stilltwo</element>
> <element>three</element>
> <element>four;stillfour</element>
> <element>five</element>
> ...
>
> if there is no separator(";") allowed within a text it is easy with just splitting a line with ";".
>
> But if there can be a ";" as a text, than I have to use RegEx.
> I succeded in finding a XQuery-RegEx if in one line there is only one case where a ";" is used as text.
>
> But I need to find every match, so I used the \\G . Worked fine, so I hoped to reuse it in XQuery...
>
>
>
> -------- Original-Nachricht --------
>> Datum: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 10:20:30 +0100
>> Von: "Michael Kay" <mike@saxonica.com>
>> An: derstubbi@gmx.de, talk@xquery.com
>> Betreff: RE: [xquery-talk] XQuery - RegEx Pattern Matcher
>
>>
>> The XPath regular expression language does not recognize \G and it does
>> not
>> recognize non-capturing groups.
>>
>> As far as matches() is concerned, there is no distinction between
>> capturing
>> and non-capturing groups, so replace "(?:" by "(".
>>
>> I suspect you wanted your regex to contain "\G". In Java you need to
>> escape
>> this as "\\G"; in XPath/XQuery, backslash is not a special character and
>> does not need to be escaped. However, there's no "\G" in XPath regular
>> expressions anyway. In Java it means "the end of the previous match"; but
>> XQuery is a functional language, so "previous" is meaningless. At this
>> stage
>> I give up because I'm not sure what you are trying to do: you haven't
>> supplied enough of your code.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Michael Kay
>> http://www.saxonica.com/
>> http://twitter.com/michaelhkay
>>
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: talk-bounces@x-query.com
>> > [mailto:talk-bounces@x-query.com] On Behalf Of derstubbi@gmx.de
>> > Sent: 19 June 2009 09:33
>> > To: talk@xquery.com
>> > Subject: [xquery-talk] XQuery - RegEx Pattern Matcher
>> >
>> > Hi,
>> > I am trying to use a RegEx within XQuery. In general that works fine.
>> > Now I have a more complex RegEx to work with CSV-files(these
>> > CSV have ";" as separator).
>> > I use can the following without problems in Java :
>> >
>> > Pattern Regex = Pattern.compile(
>> > "\\G(?:^|;)(?:\"((?:[^\"]|\"\")*)\"|([^\";]*))");
>> > ...
>> >
>> > But in XQuery
>> > let $regularExpr :='\\G(?:^|;)(?:\"((?:[^\"]|\"\")*)\"|([^\";]*))'
>> > ...
>> > if (matches($row,$regularExpr) ) then ( ...
>> >
>> > just gives the error :
>> >
>> > Error at character 4 in regular expression
>> > "\\G(?:^|;)(?:\"((?:[^\"]|\"\")...": expected ())
>> >
>> >
>> > I tried the optional flags (i, x, ...) but always with the
>> > same result...
>> > What is wrong with this RegEx ?
>> >
>> > P.S. :I run the XQuery from Java with Saxon.
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > GMX FreeDSL Komplettanschluss mit DSL 6.000 Flatrate und
>> > Telefonanschluss f?r nur 17,95 Euro/mtl.!*
>> > http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl02
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > talk@x-query.com
>> > http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> talk@x-query.com
>> http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> --
> GMX FreeDSL Komplettanschluss mit DSL 6.000 Flatrate und Telefonanschluss
> f?r nur 17,95 Euro/mtl.!* http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl02
> _______________________________________________
> talk@x-query.com
> http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk
>



-- 
Andrew Welch
http://andrewjwelch.com
Kernow: http://kernowforsaxon.sf.net/

From mike at saxonica.com  Fri Jun 19 12:50:07 2009
From: mike at saxonica.com (Michael Kay)
Date: Fri Jun 19 03:50:11 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] XQuery - RegEx Pattern Matcher
In-Reply-To: <20090619102918.66070@gmx.net>
References: <20090619083323.111850@gmx.net>
	<47B17EC9790C4DC8956C8976A090E31A@Sealion>
	<20090619102918.66070@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <418D748D69B541F69FA08012D1933117@Sealion>


These things tend to be easier in XSLT which has the more powerful
xsl:analyze-string instruction.

<xsl:analyze-string regex='"[^"]*?"|[^;]*'>
  <xsl:matching-substring>
    .. process one field ..


In XQuery think I would start by doing a replace() to replace
semicolons-not-within-quotes by some other delimiter (e.g. a PUA character),
and then do a tokenize() to split the string on this new delimiter.

Alternatively, splitting the string using a recursive function using
substring-before() and substring-after() might be just as easy.

Regards,

Michael Kay
http://www.saxonica.com/
http://twitter.com/michaelhkay 


> -----Original Message-----
> From: derstubbi@gmx.de [mailto:derstubbi@gmx.de] 
> Sent: 19 June 2009 11:29
> To: Michael Kay; talk@xquery.com
> Subject: Re: RE: [xquery-talk] XQuery - RegEx Pattern Matcher
> 
> I am trying to "read" CSV data like this :
> 
> one;"two;stilltwo";three;"four;stillfour";five
> 
> this should resolve in something like this :
> ...
> <element>one</element>
> <element>two;stilltwo</element>
> <element>three</element>
> <element>four;stillfour</element>
> <element>five</element>
> ...
> 
> if there is no separator(";") allowed within a text it is 
> easy with just splitting a line with ";".
> 
> But if there can be a ";" as a text, than I have to use RegEx.
> I succeded in finding a XQuery-RegEx if in one line there is 
> only one case where a ";" is used as text.
> 
> But I need to find every match, so I used the \\G . Worked 
> fine, so I hoped to reuse it in XQuery...
> 
> 
> 
> -------- Original-Nachricht --------
> > Datum: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 10:20:30 +0100
> > Von: "Michael Kay" <mike@saxonica.com>
> > An: derstubbi@gmx.de, talk@xquery.com
> > Betreff: RE: [xquery-talk] XQuery - RegEx Pattern Matcher
> 
> > 
> > The XPath regular expression language does not recognize \G and it 
> > does not recognize non-capturing groups.
> > 
> > As far as matches() is concerned, there is no distinction between 
> > capturing and non-capturing groups, so replace "(?:" by "(".
> > 
> > I suspect you wanted your regex to contain "\G". In Java 
> you need to 
> > escape this as "\\G"; in XPath/XQuery, backslash is not a special 
> > character and does not need to be escaped. However, there's 
> no "\G" in 
> > XPath regular expressions anyway. In Java it means "the end of the 
> > previous match"; but XQuery is a functional language, so 
> "previous" is 
> > meaningless. At this stage I give up because I'm not sure 
> what you are 
> > trying to do: you haven't supplied enough of your code.
> > 
> > Regards,
> > 
> > Michael Kay
> > http://www.saxonica.com/
> > http://twitter.com/michaelhkay
> > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: talk-bounces@x-query.com
> > > [mailto:talk-bounces@x-query.com] On Behalf Of derstubbi@gmx.de
> > > Sent: 19 June 2009 09:33
> > > To: talk@xquery.com
> > > Subject: [xquery-talk] XQuery - RegEx Pattern Matcher
> > > 
> > > Hi,
> > > I am trying to use a RegEx within XQuery. In general that 
> works fine.
> > > Now I have a more complex RegEx to work with CSV-files(these CSV 
> > > have ";" as separator).
> > > I use can the following without problems in Java :
> > > 
> > > Pattern Regex = Pattern.compile(
> > > "\\G(?:^|;)(?:\"((?:[^\"]|\"\")*)\"|([^\";]*))");
> > > ...
> > > 
> > > But in XQuery
> > > let $regularExpr :='\\G(?:^|;)(?:\"((?:[^\"]|\"\")*)\"|([^\";]*))'
> > > ...
> > > if (matches($row,$regularExpr) ) then ( ...
> > > 
> > > just gives the error :
> > > 
> > > Error at character 4 in regular expression
> > > "\\G(?:^|;)(?:\"((?:[^\"]|\"\")...": expected ())
> > > 
> > > 
> > > I tried the optional flags (i, x, ...) but always with the same 
> > > result...
> > > What is wrong with this RegEx ?
> > > 
> > > P.S. :I run the XQuery from Java with Saxon.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --
> > > GMX FreeDSL Komplettanschluss mit DSL 6.000 Flatrate und 
> > > Telefonanschluss f?r nur 17,95 Euro/mtl.!*
> > > http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl02
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > talk@x-query.com
> > > http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > talk@x-query.com
> > http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> --
> GMX FreeDSL Komplettanschluss mit DSL 6.000 Flatrate und 
> Telefonanschluss f?r nur 17,95 Euro/mtl.!* 
> http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl02


From vyacheslav.sedov at gmail.com  Fri Jun 19 17:03:17 2009
From: vyacheslav.sedov at gmail.com (Vyacheslav Sedov)
Date: Fri Jun 19 05:03:21 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] xquery & web server in browser
In-Reply-To: <74a894af0906190230t2e4b944ieeff55c412a3d093@mail.gmail.com>
References: <68072.88499.qm@web23006.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
	<74a894af0906190230t2e4b944ieeff55c412a3d093@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7ab7cbac0906190503q2cc70213h710d4654a2cf3d3c@mail.gmail.com>

about "native XSLT processor" - sound cool but while it is not
implemented - i have one suggestion

currently we have direct access to "files" in eXist database from XSLT
by doc('xmldb:exist:///db/..../rows.xml')

is here something similar for directly call XQuery files from XSLT?

for example doc('xmldb:rest://rest/.../getrows.xq?from=1&amp;to=20')
without extra serialize&reparse step

with best wishes,
Slav

On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 1:30 PM, Andrew Welch<andrew.j.welch@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2009/6/19 Florent Georges <lists@fgeorges.org>:
>>
>> Robert Koberg wrote:
>>
>>> Ideally I would use XQuery to gather the requested parts of
>>> various documents in the existing structure/schema. Then, allow
>>> XSL to transform the XQuery builtup nodeset without having to
>>> create some DOMish (even if it is the XSL processor's optimized
>>> DOM) object.
>>
>> ?But XSLT does not rely on DOM (or on anything "DOMish.") ?XSLT
>> does work, like XQuery, on XDM instances. ?I know a very good
>> XQuery engine that evaluates queries against documents in memory.
>> I am not sure there is an XSLT implementation working on an XML
>> database (I mean directly on the nodes in the database,) but I
>> know eXist has some support for XSLT (I don't know if it accesses
>> nodes directly from the database or if it works on an in-memory
>> tree.)
>
> What Rob means (if can speak for him, we've talked about this before a
> few times :) is that currently if you construct an xhtml page using
> xslt, which calls xquery to build the input from an xml db (such as
> using doc() ?to call eXist's rest interface) then this happens:
>
> xml db -> xquery -> xml doc -> xslt -> xhtml
>
> ...an intermediary xml document is constructed.
>
> Hopefully this step will be removed soon when xslt can talk directly
> to the database, or at least operate on the result of a query without
> the serialisation/parse step.
>
> Also, I'm looking forward to standalone runnable transforms, so I can
> map a url to a stylesheet and have its "main" named template run... ?I
> guess/hope eXist will do something like this too.
>
>
> --
> Andrew Welch
> http://andrewjwelch.com
> Kernow: http://kernowforsaxon.sf.net/
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk@x-query.com
> http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk
>

From gary.m.lewis at gmail.com  Fri Jun 19 09:03:27 2009
From: gary.m.lewis at gmail.com (Gary Lewis)
Date: Fri Jun 19 05:03:32 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] thank you & a request [Re: xquery & web server in 
	browser]
In-Reply-To: <4A3A8352.3050004@calldei.com>
References: <1be6002b0906181026t600d918by8724494ee67421af@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A3A7B0A.7080300@calldei.com>
	<1be6002b0906181109h559e13d5pa33b975169681cca@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A3A8352.3050004@calldei.com>
Message-ID: <1be6002b0906190503t242991f5gfc2a6ae30d4591d1@mail.gmail.com>

I've now moved the blog post (unchanged) from preview to published
status. I would still welcome comments, especially if you participated
in the original conversation. The link is now:
http://garymlewis.com/instchg/2009/06/19/xquery-as-a-web-query-tool/

Thanks again.
Gary



On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 2:11 PM, David A. Lee<dlee@calldei.com> wrote:
> Works !
>
> David A. Lee
> dlee@calldei.com
> http://www.calldei.com
> http://www.xmlsh.org
> 812-482-5224
>
> Gary Lewis wrote:
>
> Thanks, David. I believe the following link will work. If not, can you let
> me know?
>
> http://garymlewis.com/instchg/public/preview/xq.html
>
> Gary
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 1:36 PM, David A. Lee <dlee@calldei.com> wrote:
>>
>> This link doesn't work for me:
>>
>> http://garymlewis.com/instchg/?p=980&preview=true
>>
>> David A. Lee
>> dlee@calldei.com ?http://www.calldei.com
>> http://www.xmlsh.org
>> 812-482-5224
>>
>>
>>
>> Gary Lewis wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks to all of you who responded to my question yesterday. It was a
>>> gracious welcome to a newcomer.
>>>
>>> The conversation yesterday helped me. Just getting oriented sometimes
>>> is a big hurdle, so I appreciate the time you all took in reply.
>>>
>>> I do have a request. I think that others would benefit from the
>>> conversation as well. I took the liberty of editing the conversation
>>> into a thread-sequenced transcript. I'd like to include this
>>> transcript in a blog post. But first I want to check that I'm not
>>> violating any terms of use for the list, or making anyone
>>> uncomfortable. The transcript does not identify anyone by name, nor
>>> does it include any topics not directly relevant to my original
>>> question, but it does include direct quotes. And I'm very leery about
>>> quotes and intellectual property in general.
>>>
>>> Hence the request. The link below will take you to a preview of the
>>> blog post I drafted. The transcript is included about half way into
>>> it. Please take a look and let me know if you think it is a fair use.
>>> I believe it is, but I want to make sure.
>>>
>>> http://garymlewis.com/instchg/?p=980&preview=true
>>>
>>> Thanks again.
>>> Gary
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> talk@x-query.com
>>> http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>>
>
>

From derstubbi at gmx.de  Fri Jun 19 15:08:44 2009
From: derstubbi at gmx.de (derstubbi@gmx.de)
Date: Fri Jun 19 05:08:50 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] XQuery - RegEx Pattern Matcher
In-Reply-To: <418D748D69B541F69FA08012D1933117@Sealion>
References: <20090619083323.111850@gmx.net>
	<47B17EC9790C4DC8956C8976A090E31A@Sealion>	<20090619102918.66070@gmx.net>
	<418D748D69B541F69FA08012D1933117@Sealion>
Message-ID: <20090619120844.111850@gmx.net>

> In XQuery think I would start by doing a replace() to replace
> semicolons-not-within-quotes by some other delimiter (e.g. a PUA
> character),
> and then do a tokenize() to split the string on this new delimiter.

That is what I try to do ;)

But, "...to replace semicolons-not-within-quotes..." needs Regex to find those, or not ?




> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: derstubbi@gmx.de [mailto:derstubbi@gmx.de] 
> > Sent: 19 June 2009 11:29
> > To: Michael Kay; talk@xquery.com
> > Subject: Re: RE: [xquery-talk] XQuery - RegEx Pattern Matcher
> > 
> > I am trying to "read" CSV data like this :
> > 
> > one;"two;stilltwo";three;"four;stillfour";five
> > 
> > this should resolve in something like this :
> > ...
> > <element>one</element>
> > <element>two;stilltwo</element>
> > <element>three</element>
> > <element>four;stillfour</element>
> > <element>five</element>
> > ...
> > 
> > if there is no separator(";") allowed within a text it is 
> > easy with just splitting a line with ";".
> > 
> > But if there can be a ";" as a text, than I have to use RegEx.
> > I succeded in finding a XQuery-RegEx if in one line there is 
> > only one case where a ";" is used as text.
> > 
> > But I need to find every match, so I used the \\G . Worked 
> > fine, so I hoped to reuse it in XQuery...
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -------- Original-Nachricht --------
> > > Datum: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 10:20:30 +0100
> > > Von: "Michael Kay" <mike@saxonica.com>
> > > An: derstubbi@gmx.de, talk@xquery.com
> > > Betreff: RE: [xquery-talk] XQuery - RegEx Pattern Matcher
> > 
> > > 
> > > The XPath regular expression language does not recognize \G and it 
> > > does not recognize non-capturing groups.
> > > 
> > > As far as matches() is concerned, there is no distinction between 
> > > capturing and non-capturing groups, so replace "(?:" by "(".
> > > 
> > > I suspect you wanted your regex to contain "\G". In Java 
> > you need to 
> > > escape this as "\\G"; in XPath/XQuery, backslash is not a special 
> > > character and does not need to be escaped. However, there's 
> > no "\G" in 
> > > XPath regular expressions anyway. In Java it means "the end of the 
> > > previous match"; but XQuery is a functional language, so 
> > "previous" is 
> > > meaningless. At this stage I give up because I'm not sure 
> > what you are 
> > > trying to do: you haven't supplied enough of your code.
> > > 
> > > Regards,
> > > 
> > > Michael Kay
> > > http://www.saxonica.com/
> > > http://twitter.com/michaelhkay
> > > 
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: talk-bounces@x-query.com
> > > > [mailto:talk-bounces@x-query.com] On Behalf Of derstubbi@gmx.de
> > > > Sent: 19 June 2009 09:33
> > > > To: talk@xquery.com
> > > > Subject: [xquery-talk] XQuery - RegEx Pattern Matcher
> > > > 
> > > > Hi,
> > > > I am trying to use a RegEx within XQuery. In general that 
> > works fine.
> > > > Now I have a more complex RegEx to work with CSV-files(these CSV 
> > > > have ";" as separator).
> > > > I use can the following without problems in Java :
> > > > 
> > > > Pattern Regex = Pattern.compile(
> > > > "\\G(?:^|;)(?:\"((?:[^\"]|\"\")*)\"|([^\";]*))");
> > > > ...
> > > > 
> > > > But in XQuery
> > > > let $regularExpr :='\\G(?:^|;)(?:\"((?:[^\"]|\"\")*)\"|([^\";]*))'
> > > > ...
> > > > if (matches($row,$regularExpr) ) then ( ...
> > > > 
> > > > just gives the error :
> > > > 
> > > > Error at character 4 in regular expression
> > > > "\\G(?:^|;)(?:\"((?:[^\"]|\"\")...": expected ())
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > I tried the optional flags (i, x, ...) but always with the same 
> > > > result...
> > > > What is wrong with this RegEx ?
> > > > 
> > > > P.S. :I run the XQuery from Java with Saxon.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > --
> > > > GMX FreeDSL Komplettanschluss mit DSL 6.000 Flatrate und 
> > > > Telefonanschluss f?r nur 17,95 Euro/mtl.!*
> > > > http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl02
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > talk@x-query.com
> > > > http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > talk@x-query.com
> > > http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk
> > 
> > --
> > GMX FreeDSL Komplettanschluss mit DSL 6.000 Flatrate und 
> > Telefonanschluss f?r nur 17,95 Euro/mtl.!* 
> > http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl02
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> talk@x-query.com
> http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk

-- 
GMX FreeDSL Komplettanschluss mit DSL 6.000 Flatrate und Telefonanschluss
f?r nur 17,95 Euro/mtl.!* http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl02
From dlee at calldei.com  Fri Jun 19 09:44:31 2009
From: dlee at calldei.com (David A. Lee)
Date: Fri Jun 19 05:45:02 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] XQuery - RegEx Pattern Matcher
In-Reply-To: <20090619120844.111850@gmx.net>
References: <20090619083323.111850@gmx.net>	<47B17EC9790C4DC8956C8976A090E31A@Sealion>	<20090619102918.66070@gmx.net>	<418D748D69B541F69FA08012D1933117@Sealion>
	<20090619120844.111850@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <4A3B882F.1060801@calldei.com>


This may not be the best way to do it, but it works. and no regex.
This wont trap "quoted quotes"  but it works on the example given and is 
more readable then regexes to my caveman brain.


--------------------
declare variable $data := 
'foo;bar;"spam;bletch";another;"set;of;embedded";strings';

declare function local:nextstr( $s as xs:string ) as xs:string?
{
    if( starts-with($s , '"' ) ) then
        concat( '"' , substring-before( substring( $s , 2 ) , '"' ) ,'"' )
    else
    let $sep := substring-before( $s , ";" )
    return
    if( $sep eq "" ) then $s else $sep
};

declare function local:splitcsv( $s as xs:string ) as xs:string*
{
    if( string-length($s) eq 0 ) then
        ()
    else
    let $first := local:nextstr( $s )
    return
    if( $first eq $s ) then
        $s
    else
        ( $first , local:splitcsv( substring( $s , string-length($first) 
+ 2 ) ))


};

for $s in local:splitcsv( $data )
return <tag>{$s}</tag>
-----------------------
Returns

<tag>foo</tag>
<tag>bar</tag>
<tag>"spam;bletch"</tag>
<tag>another</tag>
<tag>"set;of;embedded"</tag>
<tag>strings</tag>




David A. Lee
dlee@calldei.com  
http://www.calldei.com
http://www.xmlsh.org
812-482-5224



derstubbi@gmx.de wrote:
>> In XQuery think I would start by doing a replace() to replace
>> semicolons-not-within-quotes by some other delimiter (e.g. a PUA
>> character),
>> and then do a tokenize() to split the string on this new delimiter.
>>     
>
> That is what I try to do ;)
>
> But, "...to replace semicolons-not-within-quotes..." needs Regex to find those, or not ?
>
>
>
>
>   
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: derstubbi@gmx.de [mailto:derstubbi@gmx.de] 
>>> Sent: 19 June 2009 11:29
>>> To: Michael Kay; talk@xquery.com
>>> Subject: Re: RE: [xquery-talk] XQuery - RegEx Pattern Matcher
>>>
>>> I am trying to "read" CSV data like this :
>>>
>>> one;"two;stilltwo";three;"four;stillfour";five
>>>
>>> this should resolve in something like this :
>>> ...
>>> <element>one</element>
>>> <element>two;stilltwo</element>
>>> <element>three</element>
>>> <element>four;stillfour</element>
>>> <element>five</element>
>>> ...
>>>
>>> if there is no separator(";") allowed within a text it is 
>>> easy with just splitting a line with ";".
>>>
>>> But if there can be a ";" as a text, than I have to use RegEx.
>>> I succeded in finding a XQuery-RegEx if in one line there is 
>>> only one case where a ";" is used as text.
>>>
>>> But I need to find every match, so I used the \\G . Worked 
>>> fine, so I hoped to reuse it in XQuery...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -------- Original-Nachricht --------
>>>       
>>>> Datum: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 10:20:30 +0100
>>>> Von: "Michael Kay" <mike@saxonica.com>
>>>> An: derstubbi@gmx.de, talk@xquery.com
>>>> Betreff: RE: [xquery-talk] XQuery - RegEx Pattern Matcher
>>>>         
>>>> The XPath regular expression language does not recognize \G and it 
>>>> does not recognize non-capturing groups.
>>>>
>>>> As far as matches() is concerned, there is no distinction between 
>>>> capturing and non-capturing groups, so replace "(?:" by "(".
>>>>
>>>> I suspect you wanted your regex to contain "\G". In Java 
>>>>         
>>> you need to 
>>>       
>>>> escape this as "\\G"; in XPath/XQuery, backslash is not a special 
>>>> character and does not need to be escaped. However, there's 
>>>>         
>>> no "\G" in 
>>>       
>>>> XPath regular expressions anyway. In Java it means "the end of the 
>>>> previous match"; but XQuery is a functional language, so 
>>>>         
>>> "previous" is 
>>>       
>>>> meaningless. At this stage I give up because I'm not sure 
>>>>         
>>> what you are 
>>>       
>>>> trying to do: you haven't supplied enough of your code.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Michael Kay
>>>> http://www.saxonica.com/
>>>> http://twitter.com/michaelhkay
>>>>
>>>>         
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: talk-bounces@x-query.com
>>>>> [mailto:talk-bounces@x-query.com] On Behalf Of derstubbi@gmx.de
>>>>> Sent: 19 June 2009 09:33
>>>>> To: talk@xquery.com
>>>>> Subject: [xquery-talk] XQuery - RegEx Pattern Matcher
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>> I am trying to use a RegEx within XQuery. In general that 
>>>>>           
>>> works fine.
>>>       
>>>>> Now I have a more complex RegEx to work with CSV-files(these CSV 
>>>>> have ";" as separator).
>>>>> I use can the following without problems in Java :
>>>>>
>>>>> Pattern Regex = Pattern.compile(
>>>>> "\\G(?:^|;)(?:\"((?:[^\"]|\"\")*)\"|([^\";]*))");
>>>>> ...
>>>>>
>>>>> But in XQuery
>>>>> let $regularExpr :='\\G(?:^|;)(?:\"((?:[^\"]|\"\")*)\"|([^\";]*))'
>>>>> ...
>>>>> if (matches($row,$regularExpr) ) then ( ...
>>>>>
>>>>> just gives the error :
>>>>>
>>>>> Error at character 4 in regular expression
>>>>> "\\G(?:^|;)(?:\"((?:[^\"]|\"\")...": expected ())
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I tried the optional flags (i, x, ...) but always with the same 
>>>>> result...
>>>>> What is wrong with this RegEx ?
>>>>>
>>>>> P.S. :I run the XQuery from Java with Saxon.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> GMX FreeDSL Komplettanschluss mit DSL 6.000 Flatrate und 
>>>>> Telefonanschluss f?r nur 17,95 Euro/mtl.!*
>>>>> http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl02
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> talk@x-query.com
>>>>> http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>>>>           
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> talk@x-query.com
>>>> http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>>>         
>>> --
>>> GMX FreeDSL Komplettanschluss mit DSL 6.000 Flatrate und 
>>> Telefonanschluss f?r nur 17,95 Euro/mtl.!* 
>>> http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl02
>>>       
>> _______________________________________________
>> talk@x-query.com
>> http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>     
>
>   
-------------- next part --------------
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From derstubbi at gmx.de  Fri Jun 19 22:08:51 2009
From: derstubbi at gmx.de (derstubbi@gmx.de)
Date: Fri Jun 19 12:08:56 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] XQuery - RegEx Pattern Matcher
In-Reply-To: <4A3B882F.1060801@calldei.com>
References: <20090619083323.111850@gmx.net>
	<47B17EC9790C4DC8956C8976A090E31A@Sealion>	<20090619102918.66070@gmx.net>
	<418D748D69B541F69FA08012D1933117@Sealion>	<20090619120844.111850@gmx.net>
	<4A3B882F.1060801@calldei.com>
Message-ID: <20090619190851.23150@gmx.net>

Hi,
thanks for your answer, and even more thanks for your solution ;)

I have to admit that it took some minutes to understand your way, because I didnt even recognize that this could be a way.
The idea is quite simple (now, after I understand it), and seems to work for the most cases.
Thanks for your help !

P.S.:
It is quite interesting to see the differences between XSLT and XQuery. I should not insist on using only XQuery ;)



-------- Original-Nachricht --------
> Datum: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 08:44:31 -0400
> Von: "David A. Lee" <dlee@calldei.com>
> An: derstubbi@gmx.de
> CC: talk@xquery.com
> Betreff: Re: [xquery-talk] XQuery - RegEx Pattern Matcher

> 
> This may not be the best way to do it, but it works. and no regex.
> This wont trap "quoted quotes"  but it works on the example given and is 
> more readable then regexes to my caveman brain.
> 
> 
> --------------------
> declare variable $data := 
> 'foo;bar;"spam;bletch";another;"set;of;embedded";strings';
> 
> declare function local:nextstr( $s as xs:string ) as xs:string?
> {
>     if( starts-with($s , '"' ) ) then
>         concat( '"' , substring-before( substring( $s , 2 ) , '"' ) ,'"' )
>     else
>     let $sep := substring-before( $s , ";" )
>     return
>     if( $sep eq "" ) then $s else $sep
> };
> 
> declare function local:splitcsv( $s as xs:string ) as xs:string*
> {
>     if( string-length($s) eq 0 ) then
>         ()
>     else
>     let $first := local:nextstr( $s )
>     return
>     if( $first eq $s ) then
>         $s
>     else
>         ( $first , local:splitcsv( substring( $s , string-length($first) 
> + 2 ) ))
> 
> 
> };
> 
> for $s in local:splitcsv( $data )
> return <tag>{$s}</tag>
> -----------------------
> Returns
> 
> <tag>foo</tag>
> <tag>bar</tag>
> <tag>"spam;bletch"</tag>
> <tag>another</tag>
> <tag>"set;of;embedded"</tag>
> <tag>strings</tag>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> David A. Lee
> dlee@calldei.com  
> http://www.calldei.com
> http://www.xmlsh.org
> 812-482-5224
> 
> 
> 
> derstubbi@gmx.de wrote:
> >> In XQuery think I would start by doing a replace() to replace
> >> semicolons-not-within-quotes by some other delimiter (e.g. a PUA
> >> character),
> >> and then do a tokenize() to split the string on this new delimiter.
> >>     
> >
> > That is what I try to do ;)
> >
> > But, "...to replace semicolons-not-within-quotes..." needs Regex to find
> those, or not ?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >   
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: derstubbi@gmx.de [mailto:derstubbi@gmx.de] 
> >>> Sent: 19 June 2009 11:29
> >>> To: Michael Kay; talk@xquery.com
> >>> Subject: Re: RE: [xquery-talk] XQuery - RegEx Pattern Matcher
> >>>
> >>> I am trying to "read" CSV data like this :
> >>>
> >>> one;"two;stilltwo";three;"four;stillfour";five
> >>>
> >>> this should resolve in something like this :
> >>> ...
> >>> <element>one</element>
> >>> <element>two;stilltwo</element>
> >>> <element>three</element>
> >>> <element>four;stillfour</element>
> >>> <element>five</element>
> >>> ...
> >>>
> >>> if there is no separator(";") allowed within a text it is 
> >>> easy with just splitting a line with ";".
> >>>
> >>> But if there can be a ";" as a text, than I have to use RegEx.
> >>> I succeded in finding a XQuery-RegEx if in one line there is 
> >>> only one case where a ";" is used as text.
> >>>
> >>> But I need to find every match, so I used the \\G . Worked 
> >>> fine, so I hoped to reuse it in XQuery...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -------- Original-Nachricht --------
> >>>       
> >>>> Datum: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 10:20:30 +0100
> >>>> Von: "Michael Kay" <mike@saxonica.com>
> >>>> An: derstubbi@gmx.de, talk@xquery.com
> >>>> Betreff: RE: [xquery-talk] XQuery - RegEx Pattern Matcher
> >>>>         
> >>>> The XPath regular expression language does not recognize \G and it 
> >>>> does not recognize non-capturing groups.
> >>>>
> >>>> As far as matches() is concerned, there is no distinction between 
> >>>> capturing and non-capturing groups, so replace "(?:" by "(".
> >>>>
> >>>> I suspect you wanted your regex to contain "\G". In Java 
> >>>>         
> >>> you need to 
> >>>       
> >>>> escape this as "\\G"; in XPath/XQuery, backslash is not a special 
> >>>> character and does not need to be escaped. However, there's 
> >>>>         
> >>> no "\G" in 
> >>>       
> >>>> XPath regular expressions anyway. In Java it means "the end of the 
> >>>> previous match"; but XQuery is a functional language, so 
> >>>>         
> >>> "previous" is 
> >>>       
> >>>> meaningless. At this stage I give up because I'm not sure 
> >>>>         
> >>> what you are 
> >>>       
> >>>> trying to do: you haven't supplied enough of your code.
> >>>>
> >>>> Regards,
> >>>>
> >>>> Michael Kay
> >>>> http://www.saxonica.com/
> >>>> http://twitter.com/michaelhkay
> >>>>
> >>>>         
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: talk-bounces@x-query.com
> >>>>> [mailto:talk-bounces@x-query.com] On Behalf Of derstubbi@gmx.de
> >>>>> Sent: 19 June 2009 09:33
> >>>>> To: talk@xquery.com
> >>>>> Subject: [xquery-talk] XQuery - RegEx Pattern Matcher
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hi,
> >>>>> I am trying to use a RegEx within XQuery. In general that 
> >>>>>           
> >>> works fine.
> >>>       
> >>>>> Now I have a more complex RegEx to work with CSV-files(these CSV 
> >>>>> have ";" as separator).
> >>>>> I use can the following without problems in Java :
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Pattern Regex = Pattern.compile(
> >>>>> "\\G(?:^|;)(?:\"((?:[^\"]|\"\")*)\"|([^\";]*))");
> >>>>> ...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> But in XQuery
> >>>>> let $regularExpr :='\\G(?:^|;)(?:\"((?:[^\"]|\"\")*)\"|([^\";]*))'
> >>>>> ...
> >>>>> if (matches($row,$regularExpr) ) then ( ...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> just gives the error :
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Error at character 4 in regular expression
> >>>>> "\\G(?:^|;)(?:\"((?:[^\"]|\"\")...": expected ())
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I tried the optional flags (i, x, ...) but always with the same 
> >>>>> result...
> >>>>> What is wrong with this RegEx ?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> P.S. :I run the XQuery from Java with Saxon.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> GMX FreeDSL Komplettanschluss mit DSL 6.000 Flatrate und 
> >>>>> Telefonanschluss f?r nur 17,95 Euro/mtl.!*
> >>>>> http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl02
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> talk@x-query.com
> >>>>> http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >>>>>           
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> talk@x-query.com
> >>>> http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >>>>         
> >>> --
> >>> GMX FreeDSL Komplettanschluss mit DSL 6.000 Flatrate und 
> >>> Telefonanschluss f?r nur 17,95 Euro/mtl.!* 
> >>> http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl02
> >>>       
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> talk@x-query.com
> >> http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >>     
> >
> >   

-- 
GMX FreeDSL Komplettanschluss mit DSL 6.000 Flatrate und Telefonanschluss
f?r nur 17,95 Euro/mtl.!* http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl02
From mike at saxonica.com  Thu Jun 25 09:08:57 2009
From: mike at saxonica.com (Michael Kay)
Date: Thu Jun 25 00:09:12 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] XQJ (JSR 225)
Message-ID: <A9B686B7F009462B82D12F278A19BDB0@Sealion>


XQJ is the XQuery API for Java, JSR 225 is the Java Specification Request
that defines it.

Yesterday on twitter I bemoaned the fact that the Proposed Final Draft of
JSR 225 had been published in Nov 2007, and nothing had been heard of it
since.

It would be nice to think they were listening, because a few hours later the
Final Release appeared on the site, with a publication date of 24 June 2009.

(The date in the document itself is March 2009.)

See http://jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=225

Regards,

Michael Kay
http://www.saxonica.com/
http://twitter.com/michaelhkay 

From lists at fgeorges.org  Thu Jun 25 12:44:27 2009
From: lists at fgeorges.org (Florent Georges)
Date: Thu Jun 25 04:44:35 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] XQJ (JSR 225)
Message-ID: <851056.7064.qm@web23007.mail.ird.yahoo.com>


Michael Kay wrote:

  Hi,

> It would be nice to think they were listening, because a
> few hours later the Final Release appeared on the site, with
> a publication date of 24 June 2009.

  Good news, thanks for sharing.

  BTW, does someone knows why there is a difference between an "expression" object that is actually used to evaluate (possibly several different if I am right) XQuery expressions and a "prepared expression" that really represents a (compiled) XQuery expression?

  At first glance, it seems rather confusing to me.

  Regards,

-- 
Florent Georges
http://www.fgeorges.org/






















      


From mike at saxonica.com  Thu Jun 25 14:46:39 2009
From: mike at saxonica.com (Michael Kay)
Date: Thu Jun 25 05:46:49 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] XQJ (JSR 225)
In-Reply-To: <851056.7064.qm@web23007.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
References: <851056.7064.qm@web23007.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8F6454A081214407BA67BFBE4B93F923@Sealion>

>   BTW, does someone knows why there is a difference between 
> an "expression" object that is actually used to evaluate 
> (possibly several different if I am right) XQuery expressions 
> and a "prepared expression" that really represents a 
> (compiled) XQuery expression?
> 
>   At first glance, it seems rather confusing to me.


It's a very strange design. It's worth noting that neither XQExpression nor
XQPreparedExpression is thread-safe - both extend XQDynamicContext and
therefore hold context information which is different for each evaluation of
the expression.

The difference between them is that XQPreparedExpression contains a compiled
expression or query, whereas XQExpression merely holds the dynamic context
for executing an expression or query - despite its name, the expression to
be evaluated is not held in the XQExpression object, but is always supplied
dynamically. 

Whenever I complained about the design (or even the nomenclature) I was told
it would all seem completely intuitive to people who know JDBC. I've no idea
whether that's true; I'm quite sure it's not a good justification.

Unless you need the portability, I recommend Saxon's s9api interface. It's
also probably more efficient. A weird consequence of the close() mechanism
in XQJ, which was presumably designed to allow resources to be released
early, is that Saxon has to maintain links between a connection and all the
objects created under that connection, and this stops those resources being
garbage collected.

Regards,

Michael Kay
http://www.saxonica.com/
http://twitter.com/michaelhkay 

From dlee at calldei.com  Thu Jun 25 10:00:51 2009
From: dlee at calldei.com (David A. Lee)
Date: Thu Jun 25 06:01:47 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] XQJ (JSR 225)
In-Reply-To: <8F6454A081214407BA67BFBE4B93F923@Sealion>
References: <851056.7064.qm@web23007.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
	<8F6454A081214407BA67BFBE4B93F923@Sealion>
Message-ID: <4A437503.5090901@calldei.com>

 From this description (from one who uses JDBC daily) this maps fairly 
directly to the JDBC concepts

JDBC:                         XQJ
Statement                    XQExpression
PreparedStatement      XQPreparedExpression


So on that sense I would agree it is "intuitive to users of jdbc".
But that said, JDBC is kinda weird as I never understood why the 
"Statement" actually doesnt hold the SQL, you have to pass it in to execute,
so why would anyone use it instead of PreparedStatement ?  But there is 
subtle reasons sometimes programming convenience, and sometimes 
efficiencies depending on your DB where you can get a performance hit by 
doing a separate prepare.

I would say this does "seem intuitive" to at least one user of JDBC I 
can see why they'd go that route.
Knowing JDBC I might be able to figure out XQJ mabye 10 minutes faster 
by assuming 'its the same thing but with an X".

-David






David A. Lee
dlee@calldei.com  
http://www.calldei.com
http://www.xmlsh.org
812-482-5224



Michael Kay wrote:
>>   BTW, does someone knows why there is a difference between 
>> an "expression" object that is actually used to evaluate 
>> (possibly several different if I am right) XQuery expressions 
>> and a "prepared expression" that really represents a 
>> (compiled) XQuery expression?
>>
>>   At first glance, it seems rather confusing to me.
>>     
>
>
> It's a very strange design. It's worth noting that neither XQExpression nor
> XQPreparedExpression is thread-safe - both extend XQDynamicContext and
> therefore hold context information which is different for each evaluation of
> the expression.
>
> The difference between them is that XQPreparedExpression contains a compiled
> expression or query, whereas XQExpression merely holds the dynamic context
> for executing an expression or query - despite its name, the expression to
> be evaluated is not held in the XQExpression object, but is always supplied
> dynamically. 
>
> Whenever I complained about the design (or even the nomenclature) I was told
> it would all seem completely intuitive to people who know JDBC. I've no idea
> whether that's true; I'm quite sure it's not a good justification.
>
> Unless you need the portability, I recommend Saxon's s9api interface. It's
> also probably more efficient. A weird consequence of the close() mechanism
> in XQJ, which was presumably designed to allow resources to be released
> early, is that Saxon has to maintain links between a connection and all the
> objects created under that connection, and this stops those resources being
> garbage collected.
>
> Regards,
>
> Michael Kay
> http://www.saxonica.com/
> http://twitter.com/michaelhkay 
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk@x-query.com
> http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk
>   
-------------- next part --------------
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From derstubbi at gmx.de  Thu Jun 25 16:15:22 2009
From: derstubbi at gmx.de (derstubbi@gmx.de)
Date: Thu Jun 25 06:15:33 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] XQJ (JSR 225)
In-Reply-To: <A9B686B7F009462B82D12F278A19BDB0@Sealion>
References: <A9B686B7F009462B82D12F278A19BDB0@Sealion>
Message-ID: <20090625131522.181570@gmx.net>

Just 2 weeks ago I wrote an email to Jim Melton and asked about the planned release-date(now I guess why he never answered ;) ). For me, this API comes 6 months too late. Could have saved a lot of trouble :(

"My" XQJ seems useless right now. But I hope the new official API will be a great success for XQuery...


-------- Original-Nachricht --------
> Datum: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 08:08:57 +0100
> Von: "Michael Kay" <mike@saxonica.com>
> An: talk@x-query.com
> Betreff: [xquery-talk] XQJ (JSR 225)

> 
> XQJ is the XQuery API for Java, JSR 225 is the Java Specification Request
> that defines it.
> 
> Yesterday on twitter I bemoaned the fact that the Proposed Final Draft of
> JSR 225 had been published in Nov 2007, and nothing had been heard of it
> since.
> 
> It would be nice to think they were listening, because a few hours later
> the
> Final Release appeared on the site, with a publication date of 24 June
> 2009.
> 
> (The date in the document itself is March 2009.)
> 
> See http://jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=225
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Michael Kay
> http://www.saxonica.com/
> http://twitter.com/michaelhkay 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> talk@x-query.com
> http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk

-- 
GRATIS f?r alle GMX-Mitglieder: Die maxdome Movie-FLAT!
Jetzt freischalten unter http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/maxdome01
From lists at fgeorges.org  Thu Jun 25 14:53:04 2009
From: lists at fgeorges.org (Florent Georges)
Date: Thu Jun 25 06:53:12 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] XQJ (JSR 225)
Message-ID: <75376.99873.qm@web23007.mail.ird.yahoo.com>


Michael Kay wrote:

> The difference between them is that XQPreparedExpression
> contains a compiled expression or query, whereas XQExpression
> merely holds the dynamic context for executing an expression or
> query - despite its name, the expression to be evaluated is not
> held in the XQExpression object, but is always supplied
> dynamically.

  Unfortunately, that's what I thought.

> Whenever I complained about the design (or even the
> nomenclature) I was told it would all seem completely intuitive
> to people who know JDBC.

  That is what I was afraid to hear.  While this is quite true,
it can also be stated as "we kept the same bad design as JDBC, in
that regard."

  I wonder why the design was not based on the JAXP API for XSLT
rather than on JDBC...  There are stuff to be improved over
there, sure, but the concept of compiled object (Templates) and
its representation augmented with dynamic context for evaluation
(Transformer) is very clear.

> Unless you need the portability, I recommend Saxon's s9api
> interface.

  Yep, when I can afford using it, that's what I do usually.  If
well encapsulated, it is not hard to change implementation
anyway.

  Regards,

-- 
Florent Georges
http://www.fgeorges.org/






















      


From mike at saxonica.com  Thu Jun 25 16:07:45 2009
From: mike at saxonica.com (Michael Kay)
Date: Thu Jun 25 07:07:58 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] XQJ (JSR 225)
In-Reply-To: <75376.99873.qm@web23007.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
References: <75376.99873.qm@web23007.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <800E107A624B4188ADE8657C353CBF6B@Sealion>

>   I wonder why the design was not based on the JAXP API for 
> XSLT rather than on JDBC...  

Largely NIH syndrome (not-invented-here). It's true JAXP has major faults
too, but that's no excuse for ignoring its good points. I suspect the XQJ
designers had never used JAXP in anger - no-one is familiar with all
possible precedents, after all.

Regards,

Michael Kay
http://www.saxonica.com/
http://twitter.com/michaelhkay 

From dlee at calldei.com  Thu Jun 25 11:35:42 2009
From: dlee at calldei.com (David A. Lee)
Date: Thu Jun 25 07:36:40 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] XQJ (JSR 225)
In-Reply-To: <800E107A624B4188ADE8657C353CBF6B@Sealion>
References: <75376.99873.qm@web23007.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
	<800E107A624B4188ADE8657C353CBF6B@Sealion>
Message-ID: <4A438B3E.2040602@calldei.com>

I don't want to speak for others, but I find this a curious 
discussion.   My opinion, from a definite 'outsider' trying to 
ignorantly catch up on all these technologies,
is that there seems to be a schism of philosophy regarding XQuery.  I 
see it as sorta a "world view" thing, so I shall use that phrase.  This 
is alluded to in Mike's (co-authored) excellent book "XQuery from the 
Experts".    My naive view of this is that it seems there are some 
groups of people who view XQuery as really a "Database query language" 
and other people who view XQuery as a "XML Transformation language".   
This world view seems to affect a whole bunch of things, from the 
language syntax and design itself, to API's to users discussing "what 
language is 'best' for XYZ".  Even the name "XQuery" itself leads to 
fundamental, often unconscious assumptions around this world view that 
affect how it is used.

I could definitely imagine that the XQJ authors (although I wasn't there 
so I'm guessing ...) may not be so  much ignorant of alternative API 
models, but rather drive decisions from a world-view of "What is 
XQuery".   That can (and does) lead one to consider some models and 
reject others almost off-hand.
The same thing is seen in all sorts of other fields-of-thought (such as 
the sciences, physics, engineering, biology etc).

IMHO, this 'schism of world views' around XQuery is both good and bad.  
Its good because it can attract people from different backgrounds to 
consider XQuery where they otherwise wouldn't, and to think of it in 
terms of their experience.   Its bad because it has the opposite effect 
as well, it discourages people from considering XQuery as anything other 
then their experience and imposes preconceptions, often unconscious.



David A. Lee
dlee@calldei.com  
http://www.calldei.com
http://www.xmlsh.org
812-482-5224



Michael Kay wrote:
>>   I wonder why the design was not based on the JAXP API for 
>> XSLT rather than on JDBC...  
>>     
>
> Largely NIH syndrome (not-invented-here). It's true JAXP has major faults
> too, but that's no excuse for ignoring its good points. I suspect the XQJ
> designers had never used JAXP in anger - no-one is familiar with all
> possible precedents, after all.
>
> Regards,
>
> Michael Kay
> http://www.saxonica.com/
> http://twitter.com/michaelhkay 
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk@x-query.com
> http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk
>   
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From mike at saxonica.com  Thu Jun 25 17:03:07 2009
From: mike at saxonica.com (Michael Kay)
Date: Thu Jun 25 08:03:21 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] XQJ (JSR 225)
In-Reply-To: <4A438B3E.2040602@calldei.com>
References: <75376.99873.qm@web23007.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
	<800E107A624B4188ADE8657C353CBF6B@Sealion>
	<4A438B3E.2040602@calldei.com>
Message-ID: <779B5EEF58A74AB99E05D7B1CBABF9F3@Sealion>

Yes, I think you're right.
 
XQJ has a strong "client server" feel to it, with its strong notion of a
connection between the application and the database, and a "data source"
that you connect to. It's treating XQuery as a database query language whose
typical usage is in a classic 1980s-style connection-oriented client-server
database environment. To what extent this justifies some of the peculiar
design decisions, for example the way that results are delivered, I find
hard to judge - I suspect that better abstractions could have been found
without sacrificing performance in the client-server environment. For
example, I can't see any reason why a standard Iterator couldn't have been
used in place of the XQForwardSequence, and I see no justification for the
restriction that you're only allowed to look at each returned item once
before it vanishes into thin air. A lot of the implementation effort and
performance overhead is caused by the requirement to enforce such arbitrary
rules: I hate it when as an implementor I'm required to do work that makes
the user's life more difficult.
 
There are certainly plenty of people who see XQuery being useful in roles
other than a client-server database query language. It's possible to use XQJ
in such environments, but it doesn't feel very natural, and may be
inefficient.
 
Regards,

Michael Kay
http://www.saxonica.com/
http://twitter.com/michaelhkay 


  _____  

From: David A. Lee [mailto:dlee@calldei.com] 
Sent: 25 June 2009 15:36
To: Michael Kay
Cc: lists@fgeorges.org; talk@x-query.com
Subject: Re: [xquery-talk] XQJ (JSR 225)


I don't want to speak for others, but I find this a curious discussion.   My
opinion, from a definite 'outsider' trying to ignorantly catch up on all
these technologies,
is that there seems to be a schism of philosophy regarding XQuery.  I see it
as sorta a "world view" thing, so I shall use that phrase.  This is alluded
to in Mike's (co-authored) excellent book "XQuery from the Experts".    My
naive view of this is that it seems there are some groups of people who view
XQuery as really a "Database query language" and other people who view
XQuery as a "XML Transformation language".   This world view seems to affect
a whole bunch of things, from the language syntax and design itself, to
API's to users discussing "what language is 'best' for XYZ".  Even the name
"XQuery" itself leads to fundamental, often unconscious assumptions around
this world view that affect how it is used.

I could definitely imagine that the XQJ authors (although I wasn't there so
I'm guessing ...) may not be so  much ignorant of alternative API models,
but rather drive decisions from a world-view of "What is XQuery".   That can
(and does) lead one to consider some models and reject others almost
off-hand.
The same thing is seen in all sorts of other fields-of-thought (such as the
sciences, physics, engineering, biology etc).

IMHO, this 'schism of world views' around XQuery is both good and bad.  Its
good because it can attract people from different backgrounds to consider
XQuery where they otherwise wouldn't, and to think of it in terms of their
experience.   Its bad because it has the opposite effect as well, it
discourages people from considering XQuery as anything other then their
experience and imposes preconceptions, often unconscious.




David A. Lee

dlee@calldei.com  

http://www.calldei.com

http://www.xmlsh.org

812-482-5224


Michael Kay wrote: 

  I wonder why the design was not based on the JAXP API for 

XSLT rather than on JDBC...  

    



Largely NIH syndrome (not-invented-here). It's true JAXP has major faults

too, but that's no excuse for ignoring its good points. I suspect the XQJ

designers had never used JAXP in anger - no-one is familiar with all

possible precedents, after all.



Regards,



Michael Kay

http://www.saxonica.com/

http://twitter.com/michaelhkay 



_______________________________________________

talk@x-query.com

http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk

  

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From brian at blumenfeld-maso.com  Thu Jun 25 09:24:56 2009
From: brian at blumenfeld-maso.com (Brian Maso)
Date: Thu Jun 25 08:25:03 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] XQJ (JSR 225)
In-Reply-To: <779B5EEF58A74AB99E05D7B1CBABF9F3@Sealion>
References: <75376.99873.qm@web23007.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
	<800E107A624B4188ADE8657C353CBF6B@Sealion>
	<4A438B3E.2040602@calldei.com>
	<779B5EEF58A74AB99E05D7B1CBABF9F3@Sealion>
Message-ID: <dcc7a340906250824m560f39d7y49ae2f74dd249435@mail.gmail.com>

As someone who was there at the discussions(long ago), I can confirm that
the DB companies kept a pretty tight focus on XQuery as a DB query language
and the transformation use-case was pretty much ignored. There was a strong
bias towards keeping the API as JDBC-ish as possible by IBM and Oracle.

IIRC, Per Bothner was the strongest advocate within the EG of making the API
more amenable to the XQuery use-case. Since the XQJ committee was pretty
dominated by large DB companies, who really felt this was not an important
use-case, his efforts were not received enthusiastically. The thinking was
that, if the initially-proposed JDBC-like API was modified very much, then
no DB company would have the resources to change their experiemental
implementations, and certainly the test compatibility kit (TCK) could not be
made in a reasonable amount of time.

Independent voices (like Per's) really didn't have enough votes and couldn't
overcome the economics of the situation to influence the API very much from
its JDBC-esque bias. I kind of lost interest in committing time to the EG
when I realized the big DB vendors were just going to do what they wanted,
and that many real-world XQuery use-cases were not going to be served very
well by the API.

I figured someone would develop a simplified library over top of XQJ to
support the transformation use case when it was eventually released --
though I never thought it would go until 2009!

Best regards,
Brian Maso

On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 8:03 AM, Michael Kay <mike@saxonica.com> wrote:

>  Yes, I think you're right.
>
> XQJ has a strong "client server" feel to it, with its strong notion of a
> connection between the application and the database, and a "data source"
> that you connect to. It's treating XQuery as a database query language whose
> typical usage is in a classic 1980s-style connection-oriented client-server
> database environment. To what extent this justifies some of the peculiar
> design decisions, for example the way that results are delivered, I find
> hard to judge - I suspect that better abstractions could have been found
> without sacrificing performance in the client-server environment. For
> example, I can't see any reason why a standard Iterator couldn't have been
> used in place of the XQForwardSequence, and I see no justification for the
> restriction that you're only allowed to look at each returned item once
> before it vanishes into thin air. A lot of the implementation effort and
> performance overhead is caused by the requirement to enforce such arbitrary
> rules: I hate it when as an implementor I'm required to do work that makes
> the user's life more difficult.
>
> There are certainly plenty of people who see XQuery being useful in roles
> other than a client-server database query language. It's possible to use XQJ
> in such environments, but it doesn't feel very natural, and may be
> inefficient.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Michael Kay
> http://www.saxonica.com/
> http://twitter.com/michaelhkay
>
>  ------------------------------
> *From:* David A. Lee [mailto:dlee@calldei.com]
> *Sent:* 25 June 2009 15:36
> *To:* Michael Kay
> *Cc:* lists@fgeorges.org; talk@x-query.com
> *Subject:* Re: [xquery-talk] XQJ (JSR 225)
>
> I don't want to speak for others, but I find this a curious discussion.
> My opinion, from a definite 'outsider' trying to ignorantly catch up on all
> these technologies,
> is that there seems to be a schism of philosophy regarding XQuery.  I see
> it as sorta a "world view" thing, so I shall use that phrase.  This is
> alluded to in Mike's (co-authored) excellent book "XQuery from the
> Experts".    My naive view of this is that it seems there are some groups of
> people who view XQuery as really a "Database query language" and other
> people who view XQuery as a "XML Transformation language".   This world view
> seems to affect a whole bunch of things, from the language syntax and design
> itself, to API's to users discussing "what language is 'best' for XYZ".
> Even the name "XQuery" itself leads to fundamental, often unconscious
> assumptions around this world view that affect how it is used.
>
> I could definitely imagine that the XQJ authors (although I wasn't there so
> I'm guessing ...) may not be so  much ignorant of alternative API models,
> but rather drive decisions from a world-view of "What is XQuery".   That can
> (and does) lead one to consider some models and reject others almost
> off-hand.
> The same thing is seen in all sorts of other fields-of-thought (such as the
> sciences, physics, engineering, biology etc).
>
> IMHO, this 'schism of world views' around XQuery is both good and bad.  Its
> good because it can attract people from different backgrounds to consider
> XQuery where they otherwise wouldn't, and to think of it in terms of their
> experience.   Its bad because it has the opposite effect as well, it
> discourages people from considering XQuery as anything other then their
> experience and imposes preconceptions, often unconscious.
>
>
>
> David A. Leedlee@calldei.com  http://www.calldei.comhttp://www.xmlsh.org
> 812-482-5224
>
>
>
> Michael Kay wrote:
>
>   I wonder why the design was not based on the JAXP API for
> XSLT rather than on JDBC...
>
>
> Largely NIH syndrome (not-invented-here). It's true JAXP has major faults
> too, but that's no excuse for ignoring its good points. I suspect the XQJ
> designers had never used JAXP in anger - no-one is familiar with all
> possible precedents, after all.
>
> Regards,
>
> Michael Kayhttp://www.saxonica.com/http://twitter.com/michaelhkay
>
> _______________________________________________talk@x-query.comhttp://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk@x-query.com
> http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
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From joel at stewbeans.com  Thu Jun 25 13:40:05 2009
From: joel at stewbeans.com (Joel Stewart)
Date: Thu Jun 25 09:40:12 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] XQJ (JSR 225)
In-Reply-To: <dcc7a340906250824m560f39d7y49ae2f74dd249435@mail.gmail.com>
References: <75376.99873.qm@web23007.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
	<800E107A624B4188ADE8657C353CBF6B@Sealion>
	<4A438B3E.2040602@calldei.com>
	<779B5EEF58A74AB99E05D7B1CBABF9F3@Sealion> 
	<dcc7a340906250824m560f39d7y49ae2f74dd249435@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY108-W52414E2EDD03AC24603AD7E8340@phx.gbl>


JDBC's Callable Statements and the idea of a XQuery Main Modules with external parameters in the prolog are a very nice match, IMO.  Marklogic's XCC package seemed to encourage this direction, although the support was not complete as externalizing sequences had its problem when i tried it a few years ago.



_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail? has ever-growing storage! Don?t worry about storage limits. 
http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Storage_062009
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From kennorth at sbcglobal.net  Thu Jun 25 10:46:03 2009
From: kennorth at sbcglobal.net (Ken North)
Date: Thu Jun 25 09:46:08 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] XQJ (JSR 225)
In-Reply-To: <8F6454A081214407BA67BFBE4B93F923@Sealion>
References: <851056.7064.qm@web23007.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
	<8F6454A081214407BA67BFBE4B93F923@Sealion>
Message-ID: <297170.84251.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


Michael Kay wrote:
>> The difference between them is that XQPreparedExpression contains a compiled
expression or query, whereas XQExpression merely holds the dynamic context
for executing an expression or query
.. Whenever I complained about the design (or even the nomenclature) I was told
it would all seem completely intuitive to people who know JDBC. 

That's true. It has its origin in the difference between dynamic and static SQL, with a prepared query being an attempt to achieve some of the performance benefits of static SQL (compile and optimize repetitive queries). 

The?single execution, ad hoc query is dynamic -?you compile and execute. If a query is repetitive, you want to avoid the overhead of compiling each time. You compile the query, the optimizer generates the access plan, and you store that plan for future execution of the query. 

In the XQuery context, it's greatest value is probably with engines that "understand" both SQL and XML - for example,?a single query optimizer for both SQL and XML (use relational and XML indexes and create a graph model for execution).

From christian.gruen at gmail.com  Thu Jun 25 20:12:36 2009
From: christian.gruen at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Christian_Gr=FCn?=)
Date: Thu Jun 25 10:13:02 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] XQJ (JSR 225)
In-Reply-To: <297170.84251.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <851056.7064.qm@web23007.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
	<8F6454A081214407BA67BFBE4B93F923@Sealion> 
	<297170.84251.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <d6264dcf0906251012t31c9e597y21e74eb17381dd6b@mail.gmail.com>

Yes - nice to see XQJ finished now all of a sudden..

Just to note: we have also implemented XQJ some time ago, and we would
be glad if more developers worked with it, but indeed most programmers
prefer to switch back to our own API, mostly (we guess) due to missing
database features.

Best,

Christian
http://basex.org
From per at bothner.com  Thu Jun 25 11:48:36 2009
From: per at bothner.com (Per Bothner)
Date: Thu Jun 25 10:48:53 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] XQJ (JSR 225)
In-Reply-To: <297170.84251.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <851056.7064.qm@web23007.mail.ird.yahoo.com>	<8F6454A081214407BA67BFBE4B93F923@Sealion>
	<297170.84251.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4A43B874.2070900@bothner.com>

On 06/25/2009 09:46 AM, Ken North wrote:
> Michael Kay wrote:
>>> The difference between them is that XQPreparedExpression contains a compiled
> expression or query, whereas XQExpression merely holds the dynamic context
> for executing an expression or query
> .. Whenever I complained about the design (or even the nomenclature) I was told
> it would all seem completely intuitive to people who know JDBC.
>
> That's true. It has its origin in the difference between dynamic and static SQL, with a prepared query being an attempt to achieve some of the performance benefits of static SQL (compile and optimize repetitive queries).

The problem is the design is so terribly non-orthogonal.

It's ironic how relational database theory is all about
"normalization", which is is like orthogonality for data.
The way JDBC/XQJ handles "statements"/"expressions" fares
pretty badly in that respect.

Unfortunately, there was very little interest in clean or
elegant API design.  Conceptual compatibility with JDBC,
however broken, was very important; compatibility was JAXP
was less important; compatibility with java.util.Collections
or javax.script (JSR-223, which started about the same time,
but finished in time for Java 6) even less so.

But I think the biggest problem was a lack of resources,
especially after IBM pulled out.  Improvements and cleanups
that weren't critical weren't doable - the attitude was:
"if people can get their work done with the API as-is then
it will have to do" - which is understandable, if unfortunate.

I couldn't meaningfully contribute in that environment, and
I didn't want my name on what it was turning out to be,
so I resigned from the expert group.  (In honesty, another factor
was I had gotten very little interest in my XQuery implementation,
so it was hard to justify spending much time on XQJ.  In
contrast, there are many people using my Scheme implementation.
(That is Scheme, as in the Lisp family, not Schema.))
-- 
	--Per Bothner
per@bothner.com   http://per.bothner.com/
From millertimerz at sbcglobal.net  Tue Jun 30 23:29:38 2009
From: millertimerz at sbcglobal.net (J Miller)
Date: Tue Jun 30 22:29:46 2009
Subject: [xquery-talk] XSLT, XQuery, XSL-FO Training in the SF Bay Area
Message-ID: <702645.43824.qm@web82206.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I am a recent graduate of the Masters' Program in Information
Management and Systems at the University of California, Berkeley.  One
of my emphases at Berkeley was in XML, but, with everything else I had
to do, I didn't have time to look into XSLT as deeply as I wanted.

Then, just last month, I had the opportunity to take a course in XSLT,
XQuery, and XSL-FO offered by Crane Softwrights, Ltd.  It was a great
course, and I now feel vastly more at home in XSLT, and very well
acquainted with XQuery and FO, which I didn't know at all going into
the course.  The course consisted of five 8-hour days on XSLT and
XQuery and three on FO, and covered the entire W3C recommendations. 

The instructor was G. Ken Holman, principal of Crane Softwrights and a
world-class expert in XML.  Ken was a member of the committee that
developed XML and a founding chairman of both the XML Conformance
Committee and the XSLT/XPath Conformance Committee. He is co-editor of
the OASIS UBL 2.0 specification and chairman of the OASIS Code List
Representation Technical Committee.

At the end of the eight days, I told Ken how much I liked the course
and that I thought a lot of my classmates in the San Francisco Bay Area
would be interested in taking it over the summer. After talking it
over, we decided it was worth a try to set something up for July or
August.  We also thought it would be great if the course had a mixture
of full-time students and XML users from workplaces.  
The course would be conducted at a hotel in the area, such as the
Embassy Suites in Walnut Creek.  Ease of access by public
transportation, such as BART, would be a requirement. Based on the
results of the survey and success in finding corporate participants,
I'll follow up with another posting as quickly as possible. 

At this early stage the dates have not yet been selected and will be
determined based on the feedback from a survey soliciting interest.
You'll find the survey at

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=7DK2sxNiXHTSQQXvtJZtcw_3d_3d

The cost is expected to be approximately US$500-US$550 per day (the
lesser price for former customers, early registration and multiple
seats).

These are the most in-depth configurations of Crane's XSL and XQuery
training classes, covering the use of every element, every attribute,
every keyword and every function of both XSLT/XPath 1.0 and 2.0 and
XQuery 1.0, and every formatting object of XSL-FO 1.0 and 1.1 with more
detail and more exercises than other available configurations of
Crane's material.

Use the links that follow to view the course syllabi:

Practical Transformation Using XSLT, XQuery and XPath (5 days):

 http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/training/ptuxq/ptuxqsyl.htm

Practical Formatting Using XSL-FO (3 days):

 http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/training/pfux/pfuxsyl.htm

The venue for the courses is to be determined, but will be in the Berkeley/Walnut Creek area, California

 For those who are unfamiliar with Ken Holman's extensive credentials, here's a link to his bio:

 http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/bio/gkholman.htm

 For those who still cannot make it to the new class, we have extended
the free worldwide shipping of our hyperlinked interactive 24-hour XSLT
DVD-ROM video product:

http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/training/ptux/ptux-video.htm

If you are interested in having Crane Softwrights teach publicly or
privately in any area of the world, please contact Ken directly 
(gkholman at CraneSoftwrights.com).

If you are interested in this July/August training, be quick to select your preferred dates before we lock in.

Thanks!
-Jim Miller, MIMS, UC Berkeley School of Information, Class of '09
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