<div dir="ltr">Maurice,<div><br></div><div><div><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Helvetica,FreeSans,'Liberation Sans',Helmet,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;line-height:17px">Can you relate, or is it different in the Netherlands. I can't remember why I got it from but it is very well written.</span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Helvetica,FreeSans,'Liberation Sans',Helmet,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;line-height:17px"><br class="">I'm a university lecturer in Computer Science, I teach a second year module in programming. I've spent my Christmas "holidays" marking the end-of-term test I set for my students. Every year it's the same - no more than a third of them are showing the sort of ability I would want in anyone doing a coding job. One-third of them are so poor at programming that one would be surprised to hear they had spent more than a couple of weeks supposedly learning about it, never mind half-way through a degree in it. This is the hidden issue, which academics moan about in private but don't like to say in public. It's not just me or where I teach, the same occurs everywhere. If you really test them on decent programming skills, you get a huge failure rate. In this country it's thought bad to fail students, so mostly we find ways of getting them through even though they don't really have the skills. My advice to any employer looking for real programming skills is don't just look at the degree class, look at the module grades, and don't take on anyone whose 2i or 1st has been gained by good grades in other modules balancing weak grade in the programming modules. But even with the programming modules, check out how the assessment was done. One issue does seem to be natural ability - some have got it, some haven't. We've not found a good way to work out who has it when we recruit the students, and league table pressure now means we are forced to recruit the students with the highest A-level grades regardless of anything else, and A-level grades certainly are NOT a good test of natural ability for coding. There's some correlation with the grade in A-level Maths, that's about it. However, these days when all the pressure is to recruit high grade students because that pushes us up the league tables, central admin won't let us take on applicants with reasonable A-level maths and outside interests which suggest genuine coding ability rather than applicants with just higher grades in other subjects. But another issue is lack of student discipline.</span><br></div><div><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Helvetica,FreeSans,'Liberation Sans',Helmet,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;line-height:17px"><br></span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Helvetica,FreeSans,'Liberation Sans',Helmet,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;line-height:16px;background-color:rgb(241,243,245)">Too many of them just don't realise how to learn this stuff properly, you have to practice, practice, practice. Too many of them are stuck in the mentality that to do well all that is needed is to "revise" in the week before the exam. Unfortunately, we have a culture which puts forward the impression that tests and exams are "memory dumps". I keep telling my students it isn't like that for our subject, they don't believe me. I see this in their test and exam answers, where you so often see something which completely misses the point written down because it's something they've memorised and they've dumped it on paper in response to a trigger word in the question. Note also, if the assessment is more through coursework than exams, a large proportion of what is submitted will not be the students' own work. It may not be actual copying, but it is often "We discussed it together" i.e. one of them did the work, and the others made cosmetic fiddles and claimed they were just helped by the discussion. Or some friend or relative did it for them, etc. So I would say, if assessment is not largely exam based, don't take them on even if they do have high grades in the programming modules. This is also why I have no faith in "MOOC"s, as most of the seem to have assessment based on memorisation and multiple choice rather than deep analysis of real skills. Sure, you can automate marking of really simple introductory programming exercises, but anything beyond 1st year coding, you can't, because automated marking won't test subtle issues such as good style or solving a problem in a particular way. I set tests and exams with an emphasis on writing actual code and showing deep understanding, but it doesn't make me popular, and it doesn't lead to a high pass rate. Many others succumb to the pressure, and set tests and exams with questions which are multiple-choice and centre on memorising definitions rather than solving coding problems. That makes it MUCH easier to mark, and you get a higher pass rate as well. If I had done that I wouldn't have my wife nagging me "It's Christmas - why are you doing work?", and I wouldn't have my boss nagging me "Why does your module have such a high failure rate?" and I wouldn't have my student nagging me "Why are you so tough on us?".</span><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Helvetica,FreeSans,'Liberation Sans',Helmet,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;line-height:17px"><br></span></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div> </div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 12:59 AM, Maurice van Keulen <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:m.vankeulen@utwente.nl" target="_blank">m.vankeulen@utwente.nl</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
Just to confirm, at the University of Twente (Netherlands), we teach
XML/XQuery alongside Relational/SQL to the first year bachelor
students computer science. This is their 'foundations of databases'
course. One of the main reasons is to teach them that there is
structured, semi-structured and unstructured data which are best
processed with different technologies. Regarding XQuery, my end goal
is that they can develop their first web services with RESTXQ (using
BaseX), just to make them realize how much more productive they can
become when embracing such technology.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Maurice van Keulen<br>
P.S. @Daniela,Ihe: loving your discussions!!!<div><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
<div>On 17/06/15 00:21, daniela florescu
wrote:<br>
</div>
</div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div class="h5">
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I'm not sure about that. I know Harvard does
but that is part of a web programming course.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a href="http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electrical-engineering-and-computer-science/6-830-database-systems-fall-2010/readings/" target="_blank">http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electrical-engineering-and-computer-science/6-830-database-systems-fall-2010/readings/</a><br>
</div>
<div><a href="http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/civil-and-environmental-engineering/1-264j-database-internet-and-systems-integration-technologies-fall-2013/lecture-notes-exercises/" target="_blank">http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/civil-and-environmental-engineering/1-264j-database-internet-and-systems-integration-technologies-fall-2013/lecture-notes-exercises/</a><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Look inside the slides of the database classes… you’ll see
XQuery almost everywhere (at the end of the class…).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Especially that Stanford does it, and most database
professors copy the slides from Stanford.</div>
<div><a href="https://lagunita.stanford.edu/courses/DB/XPath/SelfPaced/courseware/ch-querying_xml/seq-vid-xquery_introduction/" target="_blank">https://lagunita.stanford.edu/courses/DB/XPath/SelfPaced/courseware/ch-querying_xml/seq-vid-xquery_introduction/</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>(not that the Stanford professors understand much from XML
and XQuery … but that’s a whole new discussion…)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>MIT doesn't, neither does either of the
universities I went to.<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
That’s because Stonebreaker is there, and he wouldn’t be caught
dead teaching XML. I’ll see if I can make him change his mind</div>
<div>about JSON…. :-)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The fact that sir TBL is in MIT too doesn’t help at all
either, given the fact that he was “convinced” by a bunch of
good willing people that XML is</div>
<div>evil. (and the semantic web will cure the hunger of the world
and the cancer for sure…)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<div> </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>What are they. Alot of the ones I have read
aren't true and seem to be based on a lack of knowledge
about XML</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
I think I KNOW something about XML — not that I enjoyed learning
it, but I HAD to :-)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Want a quick list ? processing instructions, weirdo parsing
rules that are inherited from the 1950’s SGML, weirdo design</div>
<div>of namespaces, XML Schema anyone !? nillable anyone !? Some
early design of Xpath 1.0 (no reserved keywords, semantics of =)</div>
<div> I’ll stop here.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Only those and that would stop me (as a database person)
right there to use XML as a format for data.</div>
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Y'see I reckon that if JSON was deployed in
many of the domains where XML is, it too would be hated.</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Yes, but less. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>People would STILL have to face the fact that they cannot
process JSON with their beloved SQL…. but at least they
wouldn’t</div>
<div>add insult to injury by adding the weird things I listed
above. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The bitter pill would be somehow easier to swallow.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The database people accept with open arms JSOn right now
because they don’t REALLY understand what JSON is.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Most of them still look at JSON as a nicer syntax then
CSV…..they think it’s flat, or a “little” nested.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The shock will hit them later on :-))))</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best regards</div>
<div>Dana</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
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</div></div><pre>_______________________________________________
<a href="mailto:talk@x-query.com" target="_blank">talk@x-query.com</a>
<a href="http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk" target="_blank">http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk</a></pre><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
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Dr.ir. M. van Keulen - Associate Professor Data Management Technology
Univ of Twente, Dept of EEMCS, POBox 217, 7500 AE Enschede, Netherlands
Email: <a href="mailto:m.vankeulen@utwente.nl" target="_blank">m.vankeulen@utwente.nl</a>, Phone: <a href="tel:%2B31534893688" value="+31534893688" target="_blank">+31534893688</a>, Fax: <a href="tel:%2B31534892927" value="+31534892927" target="_blank">+31534892927</a>
Room: Zilverling 2013, WWW: <a href="http://www.cs.utwente.nl/~keulen" target="_blank">http://www.cs.utwente.nl/~keulen</a></pre>
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