<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I think we'll eventually get to your 95%+5% end goal this way anyway. It will just be slow enough that nobody will notice other than in retrospect.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""></div><div>If it goes slowly, so be it. But I learned that CS goes through growth spurts, like children.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>You never know when the next “wave” comes, or why. (e.g. it’s very likely the relational databases wouldn’t have ever seen the</div><div>light at all if they wouldn’t have had an egomaniac and out-of-range greedy individual like Larry Ellison pushing for them…)</div><div><br class=""></div><div>In fact, there is SOME correlation that I can observe: in period of “financial bubble” there is almost ZERO new technology attempted.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>People are too busy listening to the marketing noise to pay attention to the algorithms behind the noise ….</div><div><br class=""></div><div>People pay too much attention to the gazzilions of bizzilions of dollars…to pay attention to functional vs. imperative</div><div> and the impact of monads :-)</div><div><br class=""></div><div>It’s only crazy people like us…...</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Best</div><div>Dana</div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 4:23 PM, daniela florescu <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:dflorescu@me.com" target="_blank" class="">dflorescu@me.com</a>></span> wrote:<br class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">><br class="">
> As far as what's "better", I think that there are really two different questions here: what's "better" in The Right Way sense, and what's "better" in a "how do you get people to use this" sense. For the latter, there's no doubt in my mind that the way there is to get existing mainstream languages (which are all imperative at heart) to adopt more declarative goodness, including comprehensions/queries, as a subset - it's a much gentler transition for existing users of those languages, and more importantly, it's like a new instrument magically appearing in a toolbox that they already use daily - at some point they're bound to pick it up and use it even just out of sheer curiosity. It's much harder to get someone interested in a completely new language in comparison.<br class="">
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As I said in my previous email.<br class="">
<br class="">
Now in 2015 I realize that developers have their “favorite” language, and making them change it’s close to<br class="">
impossible, so the optimal is to give them better tools to do their job in THE language they are more productive in.<br class="">
<br class="">
So if this is C#, or Javascript, or whatever…. let it be.<br class="">
(ever crossed your mind why in an EC commerce site when you sort on price/sometinh, it GOES BACK TO THE SERVER most of the time to<br class="">
do a simple sort on 20 products !???? Sounds stupid no, ? well, that’s because Javascript doesn’t HAVE a sortby ….so …)<br class="">
<br class="">
It’s better for those imperative languages to HAVE a sequence comprehension then NOT to have it. It makes the developers<br class="">
in those languages (who otherwise wouldn’t have changed anyway…) more productive….<br class="">
<br class="">
Now, the fact that 90% of developers like comfort and/or are learning impaired and cannot learn something new<br class="">
does NOT mean that ALL developers are lazy and/or learning impaired and cannot learn something new…..<br class="">
<br class="">
For those who CAN learn something new, or for the fresh new students with blank, fresh new minds…..well, teach them something better<br class="">
and more productive.<br class="">
<br class="">
And that would be (according to me..) the OTHER way around: a language 95% declarative + 5% imperative.<br class="">
<br class="">
As I gave you as an example: when Oracle Fusion started the idea was that Java, being easier to program in then the “declarative” PL-SQL…. the<br class="">
applications will be MUCH better.<br class="">
<br class="">
Well, 10 years later, multi-billion investment with epsilon returns, it turns out that the PL-SQL version was MUCH better then the Java version.<br class="">
(1000 times more code, more bugs, less productive, more developers, more politics and decision makers, etc, etc — as simple as that ..)<br class="">
<br class="">
A failure that Oracle never talks about ….. just Oracle Fusion silently disappeared from the marketing slides :-)<br class="">
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=====<br class="">
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So, no, I would not take either side at this point.<br class="">
<br class="">
Best<br class="">
Dana<br class="">
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